Fiona Guthrie Transcript

Kirk: [00:00:00] Welcome to Let’s Hear It.

Eric: Let’s Hear It is a podcast for and about the field of foundation and nonprofit communications, produced by its two co-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.

Kirk: No

Eric: relation.

Kirk: Well said, Eric. And I’m Kirk.

Eric: And I’m Eric. Let’s Hear It is sponsored by the Prebys Foundation, a foundation creating an inclusive, equitable, and dynamic future for all San Diegans.

Check out their amazingly good podcast, Stop & Talk, hosted by Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page. You can find them at stopandtalkpodcast.com.

Kirk: You can find Let’s Hear It on any podcast subscription platform.

Eric: You can find us online at letshearitcast.com.

Kirk: And if you like the show, please, please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts so that more people can find us.

Let’s get on to the show

Fiona: It’s hot

Kirk: here, which means it’s perfect there, and that really makes me angry.

Eric: I think it got… It was 72 today, and I was slightly warm.

Kirk: Right. You were a little insulted and put out that it was 72 degrees.

Eric: I was slightly warm.

Kirk: Yeah.

Eric: But, you know, I’ll take it.

Kirk: The entire country and [00:01:00] Northern Europe is suffering under a heat dome right now.

Eric: I’m telling you, everyone, you can come to San Francisco. It’s very cool.

Kirk: It’s true. It gets colder and colder. So we’ve got a good one today, and this is so interesting and important what you’re about to do here, and then we’ll come back and talk about it. But, you know, it strikes me, every topic we have on Let’s Hear It affects us all, but I feel like this is maybe the most salient one because this affects us all, and yet how many of us wake up in the morning and think, “You know what?

Someday my innocence might be questioned wrongly”? How many of us think that? So talk about this interview because it’s so good.

Eric: I interviewed Fiona Guthrie, who runs communications for the Innocence Project, with which many people will understand is the organization that uses DNA technology to help people who have been incorrectly accused of a crime and incarcerated be freed.

And so this is one of those [00:02:00] things that speaks to the sense of justice and fairness in this country and how it’s possible that neither you or I will ever do time for a crime we didn’t commit, but there are a lot of folks out there who are, and some folks who are on death row who may be executed for a crime that they did not commit, which the Innocence Project can prove.

But what they have done, I think, is open up the minds of people about how the so-called criminal justice system operates in this country. And so I spoke to Fiona about her work, about how she thinks about stories and telling stories that move people, and about her great career in Australia and in the UK, and she’s just a delightful person.

Kirk: And this is a great illustration of the audacity of giving something a shot. You know, you start from a small project. It’s something that’s freed over 250 people. It’s passed over 200 laws. It’s changed practices. It’s created a movement 34 years in the making. So Fiona Guthrie, thank you so much for joining us.

So this is Fiona Guthrie, the chief communications officer for the Innocence [00:03:00] Project on Let’s Hear It. Let’s listen, and we’ll come back.

Eric: Story is a funny word. A news story sets a set of facts arranged to help you understand what happened, let’s say. A personal story is how someone makes sense of what happened to those facts.

A foundation story can be about how an institution explains why it exists, maybe what it’s doing with its money. They’re all stories, and they have multiple uses. My guest today, Fiona Guthrie, has told all of these stories. Fiona spent years producing news at the BBC and at ABC in Australia, where a story was something you filed for a deadline, say.

Later, she spent over a decade at the Ford Foundation, where a story was something you used to maybe try to shift social policies or norms. And now she runs communications for the Innocence Project, where a story is often the only thing standing between an innocent person and the rest of their life behind bars Fiona has been using stories to change lives for [00:04:00] decades, and I cannot wait to talk to her about how she does it and what she has learned.

Fiona Guthrie, thank you so much for joining us on Let’s Hear It.

Fiona: Oh my God, it’s such a pleasure, Eric, and that was such a great introduction.

Eric: Ooh. I’m so glad. I hope you agree with at least half of the things I just said.

Fiona: At, at least half- … of the things that you said, but I may employ you as my personal PR person at this point.

Eric: I’m available for that, and, and, you know, weddings and bar mitzvahs as well.

Fiona: Love it.

Eric: So Fiona, thanks so much. I’ve been hoping to have you on the show for such a long time. I’ve known you for many years- Mm-hmm … and I’ve just admired your work for such a long time. This is, this is gonna be terrific. I want to go back, because I know you started in broadcasting, and you went back and forth between the UK and Australia.

I know you worked in radio, you worked in television. Tell me about those early days.

Fiona: Oh, my goodness. Those early days, well, I really fell into public radio. My mother had been a nurse and a stay-at-home mom, and when we moved to Broken Hill, [00:05:00] which is a mining town in the middle of Australia- Ooh … and someone asked her, because she had a great voice and personality, if she wanted to do some radio, you know, become involved in interviewing and the like, and she said yes.

And so she became this kind of personality who went around with her trusty tape recorder, which was a kind of cassette player, or the Nagra recorder, which is a big deal- Ah, yes … in the, in the day. And she became the sort of radio personality for the Country Hour in Australia. And so I guess it was a bit of a generational transfer of talent, because when I went to university, I was finishing up my BA in history and politics, not sure what I was about to do, and someone said, “Oh, come and do a radio show with me.”

You know, it’s student radio. There was a local public broadcasting station on the campus at which I was studying, and so I [00:06:00] started doing radio shows and doing radio music shows. And then I did classical music shows, and then I did talk radio, which I loved, that kind of magazine format. You know, you’d have guests on, the local actors or whoever was the talent passing through or the like.

And in fact, the local talent passing through, I was asked to go and interview a British brass ensemble- And I went out to do it and interviewed this rather charming British gentleman who said, “Is there any jazz happening in this town?” And I went, “There is tonight.” And he said, “Well, do you wanna come with me?”

And I said, “No, because I’m going to Feminist Films.” But a week later, when he was still there, we met up in the bar just before the concert, and then again after the concert, and I married him, like, six months later, [00:07:00] having spent three weeks together. So That was the kind of … So radio was good. I really enjoyed radio.

So basically, I kind of started in public radio, and then I followed Graham, who soon became my husband, to London, and was really fortunate to fall into work with the BBC there. And that was with BBC World Service, and it was just … It was fascinating, and I loved it. And I went from radio, then into- Mm

television with the BBC again, with a, a fabulous late night current affair show called News Night. And we … By then I w- had small babies, and I wanted to get back to Australia, and so we went back to Australia for six years. And there was a whole other set of radio and TV and, you know, goodness knows what else there.

But I think that I just always … I loved being able to speak with people. I loved to tell [00:08:00] stories. I loved the medium. I’d learnt the medium from my mum in a way, and that felt kind of cool.

Eric: It feels to me, particularly- Mm … in broadcast, and maybe even especially in broadcast television, where you really don’t have a ton of time to boil down the essence of what it is you’re trying to say, how did you learn how to do that, and what are

I don’t know. Even for our own listeners, what are some tips and tricks for them to be able to figure out how to boil down the essence of a story into something so digestible? Y-

Fiona: you know, part of it has to do with just the purpose of it. Why are you telling a story, you know? Who is the audience that you’re trying to reach?

What do you want them to do when you hear that story? And sometimes you kind of stumble upon it as you’re going through all of those paces, and sometimes the talent leads you into something. But I think going into things with that really kind of clear idea, I guess that’s the sort of Coms 101 in a way, but I never thought of it that way when I was [00:09:00] actually doing it.

But it’s having a good idea of where you wanna go, but also having the flexibility to be able to say, “Oh, hang on a second. This is a tangent that I really do need to go down.” You know, I remember I interviewed a man whose wife had been savagely murdered when I was in Western Australia, and just giving space and grace.

It w- it was an interview with him and a woman as well, whose husband had savagely killed her children and left her maimed for life. I mean, just really hard, hard stuff, and being able to just give the room For them to breathe, for the story to breathe, for them to tell the story, you know, was really important.

So it’s that flexibility piece to it as well, I think.

Eric: And you also covered 9/11 in New York when you were freelancing for the BBC.

Fiona: [00:10:00] Yeah. Was

Eric: that a version of that, and what

Fiona: was that experience like? Man, that was, that was amazing. So we had arrived in the US, like, just at the end of 1999, and I had only just gotten my work permit in 2001.

And I just started to do some work for the BBC, and I got a phone call when I was on my way to another job saying, “A plane, it seems to be a light plane, has hit the World Trade Center.” And I was like, “Man, really?” Went to my work, turned on the television, saw what was happening, and then another one, and then my phone just started to light up.

You know, I was still pretty well attached to folks at the BBC, and the main office was in Washington. And so colleagues of mine from Washington were trying to drive up at that point because it was before Pennsylvania or the Pentagon hit. And they were trying to figure the ways that they could get into the city, and [00:11:00] of course, then the Pentagon was hit, Pennsylvania happened, so half of the crew turned around and went back while the other half kept on going.

There were some folks from the BBC Bureau in New York who were already reporting, but they needed a lot of backup at that point. There was a whole bunch of logistics, and just the sheer horror of what had happened. You’re trying to work through this at the same time as grasping the horror of it, and walking New York streets.

I mean, even where the BBC was at that point, they had an office on Broadway and 68th, so well up from the Trade Center. But there was something in the city. I mean, people were just crying on street corners together. We just powered through for days at that point, trying to make sure we could get satellites up, we could get feeds up, that we could get people in, that we could get people accredited as well so that they could actually be in parts of the city where they needed to be to report.[00:12:00]

It was, it was an extraordinary, extraordinary time.

Eric: It feels like it might have almost felt like being a war correspondent in which you are at the same time trying to navigate a horror while doing your job, telling the story, trying to be competent.

Fiona: Yeah, exactly. And I was working as a producer at that point, which I was very happy to do.

There were many other people who were more capable of being on air. But also because it was working for the BBC, there was quite a focus on the British community as well. And their- Man, there were some hard, hard stories in that, as you know. There was also the extraordinary sense of community as people came together to try and get through it and help each other- Yeah

through it as well.

Eric: Unimaginable. So okay, now I jump to the flip side. You gotta get there somewhere. Over time, you go from- Mm … producing the news, and then you- Mm … [00:13:00] eventually make your way to the world of philanthropy, which I have always said is like, there’s like a child on a playground watching other children play, where you are at least one and sometimes two steps away from the so-called actual work.

Kirk: Mm-hmm.

Eric: What, what was that transition like for you, and why did you go to the Ford Foundation to actually do, and how’d that work?

Fiona: All right. So I have to do a little bit of fill in from here for you as well, because-

Eric: Yeah. Okay. I know there’s a, there was a thing in the middle, but go ahead. Yeah, fill me

Fiona: in.

In between, in between, there was this one day where I was with the BBC. I was waiting with a fabulous Australian cameraman called Ian Cartwright. We were freezing our asses off outside the United Nations, waiting for Hans Blix to come out one more time and tell us one more time, you know, what was going to or was not happening in the Security Council.

And it was a hard night. And when I went home, I got a call saying, “Can you be in Chicago, you know, [00:14:00] tomorrow morning?” And I, at that point, had kids, and I was like- Mm … “I can’t do this. I just cannot do it anymore.” And lo and behold, the Australian Mission to the UN had a role for a spokesperson and press person.

So I ended up going to the Australian Mission to the UN, which was an extraordinary experience with some fabulous people, albeit at a difficult time, given the position in the coalition of the willing then. I used to spend my days running down to the UN, generally late, in stilettos. You know, trying, doing my best to be a, a good PR person, as well as doing a bit of negotiating and all of the rest of it.

And they were really fascinating days. But I used to run past this place that w- had big, you know, glass panels on it every single-

Eric: A really pretty building, right?

Fiona: And lo and behold, a friend of [00:15:00] mine said, “I saw this great job advertised the other day in The Economist, and it’s for a media relations person at the Ford Foundation in New York.”

And I looked at the address and I went- … “Damn, I run past that building every single day on my way down to the UN.” And so I applied for the job. And as I think you know, it was the wonderful Alfred Ironside who interviewed me.

Eric: International man of mystery.

Fiona: International man of mystery. This interview that was supposed to take half an hour took two hours or thereabouts.

It was, you know, one of those sessions with Alfred where you sit and chat, and chat, and chat. and, uh, and they took a very long time with their hiring process. Very long time. But it turned out it was the most wonderful move. And when I made the transition from being a working journalist to being a spokesperson, it was tough initially.

I really found it hard to let go of my identity as a [00:16:00] journalist and to be, you know, what we used to refer to as kind of, you know, the spook for, for an organization. But I really grew to love it. Really grew to love that ability to synthesize stories, to share stories, to build strategies for impact in having those stories told and the like.

And you eventually became director of story, did you not? I did. What’s that? It’s a good question, Eric. I think it was a title actually that I made up because it was, I think it used to be called director of content, and I was like, I feel that it’s more than director-

Eric: Hmm …

Fiona: of content. And I feel that it really was about the way that we tell stories, how we tell the story of who we are and of the work that we support.

And I think it was at a time as well, I mean, I’m sure you remember this, where [00:17:00] really there became this huge emphasis on storytelling. And when after the establishment of the Gates philanthropy and other of those large philanthropies, you know, the more established staid philanthropies, realized that they needed to be able to talk about their work and that it wasn’t disrespectful to grantees not, y- you know, to be taking a front seat on talking about the big picture of work at least.

I don’t know. It just felt like that was the title. That was what we were doing. We were telling the stories of the work that we supported, of the work that needs to be done, of the big picture of philanthropy, and not taking a front row seat, but, you know, speaking about the ways in which we could support the extraordinary work that was being done by the frontline people, like the Innocence Project.

Eric: Well, that’s, whoa, very well done- … ’cause [00:18:00] you’re gonna, perfect segue. After the break, we’re gonna now turn to how you have turned this career of storytelling into what may be one of the ultimate storytelling organizations, truly extraordinary or- organization in the Innocence Project. So we’ll take a very quick break and we’ll be right back with Fiona Guthrie.

Kirk: You’re listening to Let’s Hear It,

Eric: a podcast about foundation and nonprofit communications hosted by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown. If you’re enjoying this episode, you may just be a rule breaker. Check out season three of Break Fake Rules with Glen Galaich, CEO of the Stupski Foundation, as he chats with inspiring leaders in philanthropy, government, media, and more about breaking the fake rules that don’t work so that we can build a future that does.

Fiona: Check them out wherever you get your podcasts. And now, back to the show.

Eric: And we are back with Fiona Guthrie, head of communications at the Innocence Project. Let’s just dive right in. Tell folks about the Innocence Project, for the nine people out there who don’t know. What an amazing [00:19:00] organization.

Fiona: Thank you. It is an amazing organization, and it was started back in 1992 as a really small clinic, really, in a law school by Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld.

And DNA was new on the scene, and they believed that if you could establish guilt with DNA, that you could establish innocence with DNA. And it’s fair to say that at the time that they were suggesting this, there really wasn’t a concept of wrongful conviction in the way that we understand it today. You know, there was a much greater belief in the infallibility of the criminal legal system.

But DNA showed that, in fact, we do get it wrong sometimes, and that things like Eyewitness misidentification, that coerced guilty pleas, that police and prosecutorial [00:20:00] misconduct are indeed a real thing. And so Peter and Barry have done an extraordinary job in growing the organization. So it’s grown from when it was a law clinic in Cardozo to now, where we’re an organization of almost 130 people.

We have freed or exonerated more than 250 people. We have passed more than 250 transformative laws. We have changed some of the practices in forensic science, and we’ve advanced a movement for change. We went from about 160 followers, I think, when we brought on our first digital engagement person, and she has done an extraordinary job in building that from 160 to we now have more than five million supporters who would consider themselves part of the innocence movement.

And on top of [00:21:00] that, there are also more than 70 organizations around the country, and a few internationally, that also do innocence work. So it’s been an extraordinary transformation over the course of nearly 34 years.

Eric: It’s an amazing story. I can imagine, however, that coming into the chair that you now sit in, I would just be intimidated for so many reasons.

How did you think about tackling this job and how you could use communications to support this incredible work?

Fiona: You know, I think the thing also about the Innocence Project that makes it such an extraordinary organization is the clients, is the freed and exonerated people who make up the community. I mean, the stories of their wrongful conviction, the stories of their freedom and exoneration are so compelling, and they are such [00:22:00] extraordinary people.

I mean, the, the grace and the resilience of each and every one Of the people who have been exonerated and freed by the organization is, is palpable and overwhelming. And we have the enormous privilege and responsibility for telling their stories and telling them in ways that are authentic and respectful and that can move the needle on change.

And the fact that they allow us to do that and that they are part of it and they are so engaged and involved in the organization is an extraordinary bonus for us. When we go into a state house and we want to challenge a bill or speak to a bill, here’s an example. In New Hampshire, there was a movement to try to reinstate the death penalty And we went with one of our clients from [00:23:00] Florida- Mm

a wonderful man called Paul Hildwin, who faced the death penalty, who had his last meal, and was eventually freed and found innocent. And to be that close to death and to be prepared to use your voice to try to change the laws, the practices, the protocols in this country is incredibly brave and generous, and it allows us to tell really powerful stories, to be a really powerful force for change.

Eric: As you said, the concept of innocence has- Mm … has shifted, or the understanding that the criminal system has flaws, that it has weaknesses that need to be addressed in order to make it fairer and better, and that it feels to me like there has been a shift in consciousness in this country. Not completely, but it is moving, in which [00:24:00] we understand that these systems are imperfect and they need to be made better.

And I would say that Innocence Project has played a really important role in shifting a norm like that. It seems to me that if you can shift the norm around something as fundamental as innocence and guilt, and frankly change m- people’s minds around the death penalty because they understand that it is not being applied equally or-

Kirk: Mm

Eric: justly, that you could shift the norms around lots of stuff. Ha- have you thought about that, and have you thought about working with people in other maybe related fields about what this process of consciousness changing in this country can offer?

Fiona: That is such a good question, and I will say that, you know, my current ED, Christina Swarns, who is an extraordinary leader and lawyer who was part of a very famous Supreme Court case, uh, which was around Duane Buck, has [00:25:00] said many times that the Innocence Project is the most transformative criminal legal reform organization in the country.

And she says that because that concept of innocence and the fallibility of the law has been made so clear by the organization, and that, she says, has been transformative. We have an enormous advantage, as I said, because we have the lived experiences of clients of the freed and exonerated community who give so generously of their time to make sure that we lessen the possibility of this happening to anybody else, and that we try to transform the systems that allow for these sorts of things to happen.

And belonging to the communications network is part of that, of being able to share experience. I mean, we have lots to learn from other organizations, just as I’m sure [00:26:00] we have things that we can share and teach other organizations. But, you know, part of, part of it goes back to what you were talking about earlier, you know, the power of story.

The power of being able to tell stories that will move hearts and minds. The power of being able to find the things that will resonate with people. I think in our case, we are very clear about our mission. We are not a criminal legal reform organization ad nauseam, although much of the work that we do will have impact on the system overall.

Everything we do, every sentence ends with wrongful conviction.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Fiona: And we’re very clear about that. And that is an important lesson for organizations as well, is being able to see where there can be sharing of knowledge and impact and tactics and ideas and all of those things, and also [00:27:00] recognizing when it is important for you to keep to your lane.

Eric: Uh-huh.

Fiona: Yeah. I just think that’s a real fundamental.

Eric: I also saw the work of your executive director. It was made into a Broadway play with-

Fiona: Yes …

Eric: no less than Adrien Brody and Tessa Thompson. And as someone who grew up in the theater, I understand the power of theater, but I would never think that if, as the head of comms of a nonprofit organization, that your work would end up on Broadway.

Fiona: Yeah.

Eric: And to see actors dealing with your issues and an audience live experiencing them, that must be such an interesting and cool experience. Has there been anything special that came out of that experience that has helped you or think about your job or telling stories or anything at all?

Fiona: Oh my God, there’s so much, Eric, so much that’s special about that.

But I want to correct one thing in that- This is a play, The Fear of 13 is a play about Nick Yarris, uh, who was on death row in [00:28:00] Pennsylvania and was exonerated with DNA. He was a client of Christina Swarns when she was in a different role, not as part of the Innocence Project. So even though he is part of the Innocence- Right

movement, it wasn’t directly a client of ours, but- Y-

Eric: your disclaimers are noted.

Fiona: But it was such an extraordinary play, and we, we were invited to partner with them, which was a wonderful privilege and honor for us. We did a talk back with Adrien Brody and Tessa Thompson. We were able to introduce a, a wonderful freed and exonerated client called Termaine Hicks, and Tamaine is also a budding playwright.

And in fact, you can hear about Termaine’s, uh, playwriting history while he was wrongfully incarcerated in Pennsylvania on Stories of Freedom, which is a project that we did [00:29:00] together with StoryCorps. And, uh, Tamaine is talking with his lawyer, Karen Thompson, about his playwriting while he was incarcerated.

But he was able to then meet with Lindsay Ferrentino, who wrote the play Fear of 13, so they’ve got a partnership going there. We were able to invite others in our freed and exonerated community to come and watch the play as well. It has just been an extraordinary partnership, and wonderful to see this sort of work out there in popular culture being understood to audiences who may not have been exposed to wrongful conviction and what it looks like.

And it was a remarkable experience for us all, and it is a gift that kept on giving. There were posts every- I mean, I don’t know if you followed the social media, but man, it was everywhere all the time.

Eric: I guess the lesson [00:30:00] I take away from that is that you never know where the water’s gonna flow from your work.

Yeah. And I just think that that is really fun and cool. I’m not telling everybody they should go out and write a play about their work. Other than that, what I am th- saying is that you never know what cool thing is gonna happen. Yeah.

Fiona: Good.

Eric: Oh, so okay, I’m gonna shift gears a little bit in the last couple of minutes that we have left.

I’m thinking about your work and how much progress you have made, and then I look at, I pick up the newspaper and I think, “Oh my God. Are we in for a bumpy, bumpy ride?” It feels to me like up is down these days. How are you managing the current political climate, the current social climate, the deep challenges and divisions that we feel are getting exacerbated these days?

How do you, how do you turn that into something positive or how do you figure out how to navigate that in order to be successful in your work?

Fiona: I think it goes back to what I said before, in part, is really being mission-focused. You know, we are very clear about what our mission is, what is the lane [00:31:00] in which we operate.

We worry about due process. We worry about funding for the programs that we think are really important to furthering innocence work throughout the country. And that said, that is on a federal level. The majority of the work that we do really is on a state level, and there it is different, and it is changing all the time.

And we know that with our legislative programs, for example, that you may be working over various years of legislative sessions and the like. But we really try to ensure that we are always keeping in sight that mission of wrongful conviction, of restoring freedom, of transforming systems, and of building a movement.

And so we are incredibly clear and thoughtful about what are the areas that we are going to [00:32:00] lean into. And we can’t do everything. We would love to do everything and have that magic wand- … to kinda change it all up. But much of the work that we do is dictated by the cases that we take on, the areas, the states, the constituencies, the courts, the legislatures in which we are working.

And we are always, as the communications team, we are always there trying to build that movement, to grow the support base for all that we do, to get people to give us their phone numbers so that we can get them to call legislators when they need to, to get them to participate in all of the campaigns that we’re running across all of our various platforms and systems.

Eric: It’s extraordinary work, and just so impressed, and I’m so happy for you that you get to do this. And I’m really grateful that you were able to come on and talk to us about this. Fiona Guthrie, thank you so very much [00:33:00] for your work and for coming and talking to us.

Fiona: It was such a pleasure. I’m sure that you know I’m a huge evangelist for communications, and I love this work, every piece of it.

Sometimes it’s really hard, but the successes and the joy when we manage to win, when we are able to free or exonerate someone who’s been incarcerated for decades wrongfully, lost all of that time in their life, it’s an extraordinary moment.

Eric: Well, you are doing the work of the angels. Thank you again, Fiona.

Kirk: And we’re back. So can we start? That little intro, Eric, you gave was so good. You’re getting really good at that. Yeah, am I? Yeah, and I just, I have one request, which

Fiona: I want all of our guests to have Fiona’s accent, ’cause man, it’s a good accent. Lordy, that was great

Eric: You know, I’m sure she’s heard it more than once.

Kirk: So walk me through the arc here, because Fiona starts in journalism and then moves through a major [00:34:00] foundation, the Ford Foundation, and then comes to the Innocence Project. And so often, this is part of the story of the folks that come on this podcast, they have that original grounding in journalism. And I love that introductory question you asked.

Yeah. Where’s the story? How do you find the essence of the story? And law is so much about framing. It’s about framing the problem at hand. So it’s so inherently in the communication space. Yep. And yet, how do we secure justice? How do we move from wrongful guilt to innocence? You’ve gotta be able to tell the story correctly.

I love Fiona’s reaction to your question because it is the most salient and yet most difficult to answer question that any of us could face, which is like, where’s the story? How do I know there’s a story here? And how do I surface it in a meaningful way? But that’s it. She starts with that journalism background, gives us that great backstory for how that all unfolded, and yet at the heart of this is like, what’s the story?

How can that story change worlds and change lives?

Eric: It’s interesting. You know, I always wanted to be a lawyer. I even took the LSAT and I wanted to go to law school, but I didn’t-

Kirk: Really?

Eric: Yeah. I didn’t do very well on the LSAT, and so I didn’t get into a particularly good l- [00:35:00] law school, so I- … decided not to go into the law.

But I love lawyer things. I love legal thrillers. I love all of it. And they say that the evidence is great, but the lawyer who wins at trial is the one who tells a better story.

Kirk: Yes.

Eric: Yes. So that’s at the top of my mind. The other thing is that people who end up in this profession, who end up in communications, philanthropy, whatever, they come from lots of different places.

Mm-hmm. A lot of them do come from journalism. I don’t wonder why, because again, you’re, you’re writing a story. You’re trying to boil something down into something that people can understand, that can move them to action, that can move them to tears, that can move them to donating money, all of that stuff.

So we’re trying to connect with people emotionally, and we’re trying to connect with their intellect. And Fiona has this wonderful- Yeah … background. Right, right. She did radio. She did drive time radio. She was on chat shows. sh- then she went on into the news and she covered [00:36:00] 9/11. So having that incredible body of work before you allows you to call upon these various skills and talents and experiences that you’ve had over time.

And for her to be able to take all of that and roll it up and use it- Yeah … at the Innocence Project to get people off death row, to get people out of prison who were unjustly incarcerated. And needless to say, many of these people, if not most of these people, were most likely unjustly incarcerated because of their social status- Yeah

the color of their skin, their ethnic or their racial background, that sort of thing. So there’s so much injustice out there, and to be able to redress that-

Kirk: Yeah …

Eric: feels to me like one of the great, great gifts That a person can do. And that’s why this work is so important, and that’s why it’s so exciting to talk to her.

Kirk: And this is where we have all the esteem for our former journalist colleagues, because to move from journalism to then go to the Ford Foundation, [00:37:00] don’t know if you’ve heard of it, pretty cool institution. Pretty important organization. And, and that’s a tough transition for Fiona, right? It’s, it’s like- Yes

it’s like you get to go to the Ford Foundation. It’s like, yeah, I know, but man, I, I hate leaving that behind. But yet you get to bring that s- so much good from the platform of the Ford Foundation, too.

Eric: Well, the Ford Foundation is a really interesting place. Obviously, they had a famous CEO in Darren Walker- Mm-hmm

for most of the time that Fiona was at Ford. It is this august institution with a long, long history, lots of money, and lots of influence. But at the same time, it’s philanthropy- … which, you know, you are one step removed from the so-called actual work. Yeah. And so going from being a reporter covering 9/11, and then she went to work at the Australian Mission to the UN- Mm

which is its own separate kind of weird, crazy thing, to working at the Ford Foundation, it is, it’s interesting. Yeah. And I, [00:38:00] I think there’s some culture shock that probably occurs when you go to Ford, not the least of which is all those free beverages- Well,

Kirk: you do it …

Eric: in the refrigerator. And the lunch. And it’s a pretty building, and you got a nice office.

It is a different- How

Kirk: do you-

Eric: You know.

Kirk: How do you work for-

Eric: Toto.

Kirk: Oh, man. How do you, how do you-

Eric: We’re not at BBC anymore.

Kirk: How do you work for a major foundation and not immediately double your body weight? That, that part of the org said there’s food and drink available at all times. At, at the

Eric: very least, y- you become astonishingly hydrated.

Kirk: Right. There are no-

Eric: Like, and a little caffeinated, I have to say …

Kirk: no issues with the electrolytes. Well, so, and so, so here, here’s the heart, too, and you guys just went by this very quickly, but I thought it was such a good little insight into this transition. Because part of what Fiona does at Ford is says, “You know, you wanna call me the director of content, and I wanna be the director of story.

In fact, I am the director of story.” And I love that little [00:39:00] acknowledgement, and it’s so funny. Those two words, content versus story, are so transformative. You know, think about that. What carries content? You know? It’s, like, such a- Yeah … it’s such a dead, such an inactive, and yet it’s actually such an apropos word for kind of a sensibility, I think, at times about our field.

It’s like, well, just, just plug into our content. This is all you need. Take our content, right? It’s like, no, actually- Right … we need to fly on the wings of story. So, so within Ford, Fiona’s like, “Hey, we’ve gotta think about this differently and more impactfully.” I’ve… And, and so she does not actually leave her journalism bona fides at the door.

She says, “I’m gonna bring this right in with me when I’m doing all this work here.”

Eric: Yeah. Director of content is kind of like director of stuff.

Kirk: Right? It’s like all the things we have,

Eric: you know? And director of story is like director of music. I don’t know.

Kirk: But then- Moving to the Innocence Project. And before we get into some of the specifics about how Fiona has addressed that, I do wanna…

You know, Fiona did it in such passing so [00:40:00] well. Talked about the impact, and that’s why I brought it up in the intro. They haven’t just freed people, but they’ve changed laws- Right … they’ve changed practices, and they’ve created this movement with all these supporters. And how many of our nonprofits are actually trying to work across that depth and breadth of outcomes, right?

So it’s not even just I’m doing the work to advance this mission, whatever that looks like, but when you look at how that gets expressed, it’s always gonna be expressed in these very different dimensions in terms of how things sort out. Like, the communications that go beyond advancing law and policy are very different than what it takes to actually support all the work that goes around to establishing innocence, to changing practices at forensic sites.

Who even knows what that looks like? But I can imagine, but I can imagine that looks a little bit different than actually the work you need to do to build an actual place-based movement of over five million supporters. So to me, that’s another part of this. The dimensions of the work here is think about the depth and breadth of just all the domains that Fiona is working across and all of her colleagues at the Innocence Project.

I just love that it works, that they have the ambition to do it, [00:41:00] but that it actually works, that they can pull that off.

Eric: Well, it’s very interesting in that she said a lot of what we do is stay to our lane- Yes … by focusing very specifically on people who were incorrectly incarcerated- Yeah … and we can prove that they’re innocent.

And just by doing that, it opens up the opportunities for lots of other people to say, “Hey, wait a minute. Let’s look at this so-called criminal justice system. Let’s look at who we’re incarcerating without the evidence that these people have actually committed a crime. What does that say about us? What does it say about us as a community?

What does it say about our systems?” And a lot of other folks are asking those questions, and they’re providing the jumping-off point by just focusing on these people who are innocent and deserve to walk free. And that is creating this much broader, incredibly powerful movement that is a reminder to folks doing all kinds of work, what can I be very specific [00:42:00] about that makes space to build something bigger?

Kirk: Yeah, and to st- stay within your lane. And then to me, this is the echo in the mirror from Fiona’s own journey. So think about this transition and roles from journalist to major foundation leader and story to now working on this seminal work around the Innocence Project. But the concept of identity and all the different identities that Fiona has worked through in Fiona’s career and then thinking about that.

Now you’re talking about your identity is a criminal. Your identity is you are convicted. And Fiona’s saying, “You know, actually,” and her colleagues, “No, actually, that’s not true. This is, there’s a different story. We have to capture a different identity for this person.” And, and I was thinking as Fiona was talking, I was like, wow, how often Our work is involved in this notion of identity.

Eric: Hmm.

Kirk: You know, we’ve had so many of our guests come on and talk about the language we use to- Right … establish certain kinds of identity. It’s so unfair. It so hollows people out. So you were talking with Fiona about if you can do this in this way, you should be able to do it all these [00:43:00] different ways. So I’m like, just this language about identity- Yeah

just this storytelling about you have a different identity, that what, what’s being said about you is not true. To me, that’s the part that’s just so universally relevant for all the work we’re doing across all of our spaces. And so again, the graciousness of Fiona to come on and talk about it was really, really cool and exciting to hear about.

Eric: Yeah, and as, as you’re saying this, I was thinking, well folks, if you’re listening to this and this is interesting, go back and listen to the Trabian Shorters-

Kirk: Yes …

Eric: ep- episodes- Yes … ’cause he, he talks about that all the time. you know, we talk about kids who are at-risk youth instead of kids who would like to get a job.

Thank you very much.

Kirk: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, no, we, we, we had our colleague on who was talking about their work with what? The homeless or the unhoused. Right. You know what I mean? Like, like, so, so often our language is jumping around.

Eric: Like people who deserve a nice place to live. L-

Kirk: let’s face it, though, the real reason that Fiona was on this podcast is because you’re trying to get your in- yourself inserted into that Broadway play.

I totally know what’s going on here. It’s so obvious.

Eric: I d- I don’t [00:44:00] think

Kirk: that’s gonna happen. You were so jealous. You were so wishing. But talk about depth of breath, right? And obviously Fiona was very clear about whose story that represents and whose worth it represents, but the range of this work is so relevant.

It reaches all the way out in a very poignant way and touches people on the Broadway stage. So again, you, to have somebody who could be in that chief communications officer role for an organization working across this many different places, you’d have to have somebody with Fiona’s gifts and talents, right?

Yeah. Like, it’s just so, it’s so clear. It’s so obvious.

Eric: It’s such a great career, and the work she does is so important and delightful in so many ways. It was a great opportunity to chat with her and to hear more about her work.

Kirk: You’ve known Fiona a long time. where does the gracefulness and the graciousness come from?

Because these are hard beats. It’s tough to be a journalist. It’s tough to actually do foundation philanthropy work at scale, you know? It’s tough to actually work in the front lines of helping overturn wrongful convictions. W- is that just, is that teachable, or is that just, is that, you just get [00:45:00] lucky?

Fiona just got lucky. Is that it?

Eric: I think we all have to remind ourselves to be gracious. But, and, you know, she comes from central Australia. You think you’re hot? She comes from hardscrabble stuff. Maybe. And so, you know, you and your Marin County hot heat. Ha ha

Kirk: ha. Maybe, maybe that’s the answer. Maybe it’s that origin story that has some…

You run into some conflict in some way as part of your origin story. Yeah. That’s actually the thing that comes through. Well, Eric, is there anything else about the Innocence Project we should be talking about? ‘Cause it was a really cool conversation. There’s so many different directions we could take it, but- Oh

Fiona Guthrie, my goodness. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Eric: Oh, the one thing that I will say is that she referenced, I think it was StoryCorps work- Hmm … which we’ll put, we’ll put into the episode description.

Kirk: That’s great. Yep. And StoryCorps, another great organization that’s been doing such seminal work. Well, so thank you so much, Eric.

So that was Fiona Guthrie, the chief communications officer from the Innocence Project. Thank you so much for joining us on Let’s Hear It, and stay cool wherever you are. Stay gracious wherever you are. Thank you, everybody. [00:46:00]

Eric: Okay, everybody, that’s it for this episode.

Kirk: Please let us know if you have any thoughts about what you heard today or people we should have on this show, and that definitely includes yourself.

And we’d like to thank John Allea, the tuneful and inspiring composer of our theme music.

Eric: Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.

Kirk: And please check out Lumina’s terrific podcast, Today’s Students, Tomorrow’s Talent, and you can find that at luminafoundation.org.

Eric: We certainly thank today’s guest, and of course, all of you.

Kirk: And most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.

Eric: Oh, no, no, no, no. Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk: Okay, everybody. Till next time