Glen Galaich on Why Big Giving Falls Short – Transcript

Kirk: [00:00:00] Welcome to. Let’s Hear It.

Eric: Let’s Hear. It is a podcast for and about the field of foundation and nonprofit communications produced by its two co-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown. No relation.

Kirk: Well said Eric. And I’m Kirk.

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Glen: Let’s get onto the

Kirk: show. So I’ve realized after all this time that you’ve [00:01:00] just been laying in.

Wait for me.

Eric: I am laying in. Wait for you. What am I,

Kirk: what I, last time you revealed, last time you revealed you didn’t edit for the podcast. That saved my career. Yes. And we talked about it. And it’s true. You saved my career.

Eric: Excellent. You owe me one career.

Kirk: Just so, just so we could get to this episode when you could end my career.

Because the conversation that we’re about to have, and I wanna ask you, ’cause I’m looking at, I’m looking at countdown clock right now.

Eric: Yes.

Kirk: What, what are we? 13 hours. 13 days, seven hours and 29 minutes from it. This moment,

Eric: right?

Kirk: What are we, 13

Eric: People are listening to our voice.

Kirk: Yeah.

Eric: This is D-Day. This is the day.

Kirk: This is the day, yes. So we’re 13 days away from the day. Today is the day happen. So to set this up, because this may be, this could be it. We’re gonna have this conversation, this book is gonna come out and then it’s gonna be all over. That’s right. Everyone’s gonna get fired. There’s nothing else that’s gonna happen.

This could be it. This could be

Eric: it. What day is it? You ask me. Today is the day [00:02:00] that the book control Why Big Giving False Short by Glen Gallic of the Stusy Foundation arrives in your whatever at your bookstore or your something, something in release. You can purchase it. This is also the day, by the way, that you’ll listen.

You’ll hear me in stereo because I am taking over Glen’s podcast to talk about his book. So we’re in competition. I’m in competition with myself today.

Kirk: Yeah, that’s, that’s what you like to do.

Eric: Overexposed. I’ve been overexposed. I haven’t been overexposed since, since 1982.

Kirk: So March 17

Eric: today, today.

Kirk: Control why Big Giving Falls Short will be released by Glenn from the Stubs Ski Foundation.

And please, you can go to steps ski.org/control. Imagine that and find all about it. Anywhere you get your books, we hope you have one down the street that you go, uh, you go immediately [00:03:00] to and get it. But this is so, my goodness. There’s a meal here. There’s a meal here, and we’re gonna have to talk about some rules of the road when we come back.

Eric: Yes. And disclaimers for disclaimed to Glen in the conversation. But I disclaim now to all of you, if you are saying, oh, Eric is a shill for Glen because he’s sponsors this show, the answer is you’re just gonna have to trust me. I would’ve had him on anyway.

Kirk: Well, you’re

Eric: just have to trust. If you don’t trust me, you’re not listening anyway.

So there.

Kirk: Okay, everybody. Let’s, let’s, let’s get into this. So this is Glen Galles with Derek on. Let’s hear it. Uh, let’s listen, let’s come back.

Eric: American philanthropy is sitting on $2 trillion, and while nonprofits across the country are laying off staff cutting programs and wondering if they’ll survive the year, most of that money is parked on Wall Street going absolutely nowhere.

My guest today thinks he knows why Glen Gallic is the CEO of the Stubs Ski Foundation and his new book [00:04:00] Control. Why Big Giving False Short makes an argument that is as simple as it is explosive. The money in America’s foundations and donor advised funds doesn’t belong to the donors anymore. It belongs to the public.

And the entire system we’ve built exists to keep donors in control of money that stopped being theirs the moment they took the tax deduction. Now, Glen. Is not an outside critic. He’s a sitting foundation, CEO, who spent years reinforcing every rule. He’s now trying to break this book is his conversion story, and I should tell you, I read an early draft.

I argued with him about it and I told him his central framing was too nice. He ignored me. We’re gonna talk about that. Glen Gall. Welcome back to, let’s hear It.

Glen: Oh my gosh. I am. Electrified right now. That is the greatest announcement, uh, promotion. How do I, where do I, where do I get [00:05:00] this? How, where do I get the tape?

Oh, I hear It’s on a podcast called Let’s Hear

Eric: It. Download the show and write it down with a piece of, with a pencil.

Glen: Wow.

Eric: Welcome back. So I was just thinking you been on the show before and I was saying, oh, that was recent. That was four years ago.

Glen: Yeah. Which is crazy. Yeah, and I was, at the time, I was just a wee bit podcaster.

I’m not, you know, now it’s our daily existence. Eric, you are a co-host on Break Fake Rules.

Eric: I know. So

Glen: this is, this is fun. This is,

Eric: this is fun. We have to disclaim, we have to, yeah. A, a, a, a large pile of disclaimers. Disclaimer number one.

Glen: Yeah.

Eric: Conflict of interest. Number one. You’re a, you’re a funder of this podcast.

Glen: Yes. So that, that we paid a lot for that announcement you just made. Thank you.

Eric: But I will say to anybody who happens to know me and, and happens to understand whether or not I have integrity, I try to, and I would’ve had you on this show anyway.

Glen: Well, that’s very nice. And, uh, I, I agree. You have enormous integrity, and I expect you to challenge [00:06:00] me on every point in the book.

And not shy away from the power and control of a funder over your product.

Eric: That’s, that’s right. The, the awesome control that you, you wield over. We

Glen: try

Eric: the, the other thing. Well, here’s a, an interesting thing. Yes. Disclaimer number two is that, and I already mentioned it, you had offered your early draft to me to read and respond to.

Glen: Yes.

Eric: Which I did. Yes. Now, disclaimer number three is I haven’t actually read the final book. It’s not out yet. I have ordered it through my local independent bookstore.

Glen: Wow.

Eric: It will drop. Thank you. I I, I spent a small amount of the money that you gave me to sponsor this show to, to funnel back into your book.

Glen: Oh. That’s how it all works. That’s philanthropy.

Eric: Aye. Yay. So the law, that’s Phil, that’s philanthropy. The hypocrisy

Glen: Yes.

Eric: Is bubbling right now. So, but we will try to earn. Back. Any respect we might have lost in this first, uh, [00:07:00] three and a half minutes. Alright, so now

Glen: hold on. I do wanna point out one thing. I hate to interrupt you ’cause Please, I know you got, you’ve got an important topic to get to, but I do think people should know that you suggested a, an alternative title to the book.

Eric: I did.

Glen: And I believe it was, it’s not your money after all. Now stop it.

Eric: Something like that.

Glen: Was it? Something like that? Yeah.

Eric: Where’s that effect?

Glen: I did not go with that.

Eric: I know

Glen: you didn’t. Um, it, it was a, it was a very close second. You can imagine the teams of marketing geniuses that sat around. The, the whiteboard with that title and control next to each other and thinking, which one do we go with?

It was close.

Eric: I, I

Glen: understand. But we stayed. We stayed with control.

Eric: The book is called Control Y, big Giving Falls Short. Oh, and by the way, one more little thing is that my co-host, Kirk Brown, at the end of our conversation with you and Kirk and I then of course have this little conversation that’s right with each other.

That’s what I call the blah blah. Kirk said, oh my

Glen: goodness,

Eric: Glenn, write the book. You can go back and listen to the tape. He said, write the book.

Glen: Oh, at the [00:08:00] last one? The one we did four years

Eric: ago. Yeah. In 2021.

Glen: Oh my goodness.

Eric: He said, write the book.

Glen: Oh my goodness.

Eric: So

Glen: Kirk, I can only imagine what the blah blah is gonna be this time.

Is he gonna be like, maybe that wasn’t a great suggestion. I gave him No,

Eric: no. Kirk is gonna yell and scream. Like that was my idea.

Glen: That’s interesting. Well, that is interesting because I’ve been working on the book for about three and a half years, so I’m just giving him more evidence.

Eric: Well, as I’ve called Kirk, the Tom saw.

Of whatever podcasting. ’cause he just gives, he tells me to do things and he sits back and watches as I paint his fence. And, and apparently he, he is some kind of subversive Tom Sawyer for you too. He, he told you to write a book and

it’s

Glen: powerful.

Eric: You went ahead and did. It’s

Glen: powerful. Yeah.

Eric: Well, let’s, let’s get into this a little bit.

Okay. So that was four years ago and you were starting to fate on what philanthropy does right. And what it more importantly could do better. Uh, and, and you have written this book. What has changed for you in these [00:09:00] four years? How have you brought these ideas together? What coalesced in your own mind, what got you off your duff to really take a a, a depth charge to philanthropy?

Glen: Okay, so the main thing I wanna really lead with is that. This is a book that’s that. This is gonna sound really boring, but I happen to think it’s, it’s actually a very interesting book, but,

Eric: oh, I’m sure it’s gonna be spectacularly

Glen: interesting. I’m gonna use a word that’s gonna probably make people kind of go, okay.

But it is an important word, and this is a book about the system. The system in which we all play a role. And that’s the thing I wanna point out. While everything you said in your opening is true, and this does this, there’s a strong orientation toward donors and the people who support them. I ha I have empathy for everybody in this.

And at times in the book you may be wondering, does he still have empathy? But the reality is I do. And we are in a system that we all play a role and that’s how I [00:10:00] want to really kind of set it up. And the podcast we do break fake rules that Eric is a big part of now, is really trying to encourage people to break those fake rules that systems.

Get us to follow the legal ones. You have to follow, Eric and I always have to remind you of that. You have to follow legal laws, but the rest of it is really normative and practice-based. So to, to your question, I got to a place where I really, I got into, certainly around the time that we did the last, let’s hear it together.

I was at a place where I was really thinking deeply about why it is the case, as you said in your opening, that so many trillions of dollars are sitting in foundations and not going to charity. And I have to tell you, the more I’ve gotten into this, writing the book after the book, thinking about different ways of talking about the book and really paying attention to the world around us.

It’s just gotten even. And the word worse [00:11:00] is, is, is, you know, pretty, pretty strong word, but it, it has, it’s all, it’s, it’s, it’s really showing up to me like the matrix. I feel like I’m sitting in front of a screen with weird symbology coming down in front of me all through the day. And I can read it, I can see it, I can see the system, and, and you can see the roles that people play in it.

Um, so that’s really at the heart, heart of the book. It’s a story. Uh, it’s also, it’s a story of people playing their roles in a system. It’s a story of people breaking out of those roles and trying things differently, whether it’s stukey, other donors, uh, and friends. And, uh, that’s kind of where the book goes.

So there’s a whole bunch in inside that.

Eric: Well, you talk about what you call the, the mindset of control, which is that donors hold onto power over money that’s really not theirs anymore. Right. Uh, I, I consider it more of a problem of control, but

Glen: yeah.

Eric: Can you talk a little bit more about this control thing, seeing as how it’s somewhere near the title of your book?

Glen: Yeah. So again, I’m gonna try to, I I was back in, you know, [00:12:00] many, many years ago. I, I, I fan, I fancied myself an academic.

Eric: You do have a PhD. You are, I should, I should have called you Dr. Gallic.

Glen: Yeah. Again, I fancied myself an academic. I don’t, I don’t really speak to that

Eric: much anymore. You’re not a very fancy academic though, for somebody who fancies since stuff.

Glen: Well, I try to be, you know, I’m wearing a nice jacket today. Oh. Um, I. So this is gonna sound academicy when I say that, that we as a society have have allowed and have encouraged through what I call, you know, a permission structure, have allowed and encouraged donors to act in a way, into control. You know, it’s interesting, this goes back to Mr.

Carnegie, if you read his writings, he makes the argument that people who really understand how an economic system operates and thrive in that environment are clearly the smartest people on the planet, right? And they should decide what, [00:13:00] what the rest of society, the dumb people get. And one way to do that is to ensure that this is the part where Carnegie sounds good, is that they should give away their money and give it to society and help the dumb people so that they can survive.

That they should not hoard and amass wealth, that they should give it away. That is to this day, the driving ethos behind philanthropy. Now, you know, no one uses words like dumb and ultra smart, but it is underlying it. You know, for example, there, there are some, there’s a very wealthy philanthropist who has a lot of foundations across the United States who invented an auction platform where I get to sell my old Star War figures, and he made so much money at doing that, that he has lots of foundations and he’s taken on with his wife a lot of causes from human rights to economic policy to democracy, to the media, and we appreciate [00:14:00] that from a systemic standpoint, because he’s done all this great stuff with auction platforms.

Do those two things go together? Is he the right person to be making decisions on that? That’s for you to, to decide from the conversation in the book. And to your question, where does the mindset of control come from? We have said to people like him, you deserve to give the money away as you would like to, and you deserve to put it into a really nice tax instrument we call a foundation.

And you deserve for doing that a massive tax exemption and you deserve for doing that to create the governing documents, the laws of that organization to put yourself in as chair of that foundation, your family members as supporting board members to that foundation, and you will determine where that money goes.[00:15:00]

The trick of this whole thing, which you, you hinted at, is the moment he takes that tax benefit. In my opinion, he signed an agreement with the American people, that he will be a public steward as the governing chair of the foundation. He will act in a way that benefits the public as the public would like it to be done.

And that’s not how it typically goes at that point.

Eric: Alright. So as the sitting foundation, CEO, who’s writing a book that says, the system that created the thing that pays you, that created the thing that pays me. And, uh, yeah. A lot of folks in the nonprofit world and, and foundations is busted that it is based on a premise that needs to be altered.

How’s that working out? How, how’s that, how’s that landing, you know, in the Tony, uh, clubhouses of foundation, CEOV?

Glen: Yeah. You know, that’s what I was getting at earlier is that we’re so enmeshed in this thing. It, it’s interesting we’re, I’ve [00:16:00] noticed, especially as I. I on occasion say some critical things about how the sector operates.

You mean,

Eric: uh, hourly.

Glen: And it’s interesting if I say things that are like, love it. Awesome. I get a lot of positive responses on my social medias from my peers, but if I ask something or state something that’s not quite in alignment with, I think the, the, the narrative, if you will, that’s a, that’s a word people use a lot these days.

Yes. The narrative. Uh, I get a, I get crickets and I think for the most part until. Some of the, some of the players out there who have quite a bit of status and stature. If this book ends up becoming one of those books that people talk about, they’re gonna have to respond to it and I’ll look forward to how they respond.

I’ll put an invitation out there for anyone who strongly disagrees with me in the sector. Please write as [00:17:00] much as you want to and need to about what you disagree with me on ’cause I would love to engage in that debate. But for I can tell you the general approach to criticism of the sector is ignore hope.

It goes away and keeps saying things that. Fit the narrative and I can say more to that, what that is.

Eric: Well, one of the many joys of this book, not the least of which is that it makes me crazy because you’re right about so much of it and a lot of it is are things that I hadn’t really fully considered for.

The reasons that you say that we have kind of been habituated into thinking that you can take the tax tax deduction started foundation and then get to decide all the rules with that tax preferred money. Another delicious thing about this book is that there are, you kind of relay conversations and you kinda give us a little fly on the wall of the CEO EO thing and conversations with people who are upset.

This one guy was whispering, whispering about his donor in an empty room to [00:18:00] you. Yeah, yeah. Colleague goes who was pushed out his foundation or her foundation for not fitting the tech billionaire so-called brand. And for me the, the brain went. Directly to that old Joe Klein book about politics, way back when.

That was, for a while he was considered anonymous. He was trying to figure out like right, who’s who, who wrote it, who, who are the people. So I, I have a feeling that the kremlinology around some of the stories that you tell will be intense. Are you ready for that? Are you ready for people to like, ooh, what are you, you know, which, which secret are you giving away?

That kind of stuff.

Glen: YYY yes.

As you can imagine, as we, we, I say we, ’cause there I have this very talented developmental editor working with me the whole way through. Who, who’s kind of the, every time I’d write something, it’s fun when I write something on LinkedIn. Claire Callahan, who some people know as communications, Claire of the director of Comms at Subs Ski.

Often when I cross a certain line, taps me on the [00:19:00] shoulder and says, you crossed a line and I just want you to know you crossed it. So I’ll leave it up to you as to how you want to deal with that. Heidi also did that, but in a different way, and it, it was in stuff like this where I would write some something in the book and she would come back and play devil’s advocate, like, do you, is that, first of all, I don’t, I don’t think you’re making any sense.

Number two, you’re very angry. You need to calm down. It’s time to bring the empathy tablet back into your brain. And on this topic of who’s in the book and what I talk about in the book. 90% of the stories are true stories. 90% of it is what people have shared with me and we have done our darnedest to anonymize it.

Because I don’t want people to be afraid that talking to me is gonna be, is gonna end up on, you know, in a book every time they talk to me. Most of the people that I spoke to, unless I just experienced it right in front of me, gave me permission to share it, but very much wanted it anonymized. And you know, Eric, [00:20:00] actually the funny thing about your question, I think about all the time, I dunno if it’s funny, it’s actually terrifying, is that, is that people are so fearful of talking, but these are really not, I mean, they’re behind the scenes things, right?

And they are. But in the world that we live in where there’s so many threats for so many reasons, this is just not a threatening issue. Speaking openly about, I mean, look, look, you might lose your job and these jobs are great jobs. There’s no doubt about it. I make that really clear book.

Eric: They definitely come with a lot of free, uh, things in their fridge.

Glen: Yeah, it’s nice. So you don’t wanna lose that. You go

thirsty.

Glen: You don’t, you don’t wanna lose that. And you know, great. You get to be in plenary sessions on stages and you, you get to wear cool jackets. But the thing is, people are very fearful in the sector. They’re very fearful of rejection, being called out, retaliated against.

So that story you’re talking about is true. I, I was standing in a gigantic room, empty room, [00:21:00] and he, he was sharing with me his experience with someone he’d known for a very long time. And he was saying some rather derogatory things, but he could, there’s no one around at all. In fact, he probably should have been thinking more about talking to me than anyone else.

And he was whisper. I could not, I was like, I’m sorry, I’m not following you. Which is just a we just us. Here he was. It was like he was worried that there were microphones all around going straight to the donor’s ear.

Eric: Wow. Well, we have so much more to talk about. We’re gonna take a very, very quick break.

Okay. We’re gonna talk in the second half, we’re gonna talk about what are we supposed to do about this, and let’s, let’s talk a little bit more about your, one of your favorite topics, which is perpetuity and, and the other, which is, love it. What do we, what, what should these foundations be doing with all that money that they’re sitting on?

So we’ll be right back with Glen Gallic right after this.

Kirk: You’re

Eric: listening to, let’s Hear It, a podcast about foundation and nonprofit communications hosted by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown. If you’re enjoying this episode, [00:22:00] you may just be a rule breaker. Check out season three of Break Fake Rules with Glen Gallic, CEO of the Stubs Ski Foundation, as he chats with inspiring leaders in philanthropy, government media, and more about breaking the fake rules that don’t work so that we can build a future that does Check them out wherever you get your podcasts.

And now back

Kirk: to the

Eric: show.

And we are back with Glen Gallic, his new book Control. Why Big Giving Falls Short, I hope is going to put off a few depth charges into philanthropy, but also shake up a way of thinking about how we, how we approach philanthropy in, in particular, some of these like great big, you know, fake rules that philanthropy advances.

One of which of course is should foundations live forever and you are firmly on the side that they should not. Can you tell, give us your quick take on perpetuity.

Glen: Oh boy. First I just wanna comment on the death [00:23:00] charges. I love this sector, I love the opportunities we have in this sector and where this book is different than, say, winners.

Take all, if you’re unfamiliar with it, this was, this was the depth charge that hit the sector in 2018 from a non-IRA DDoS. He as a journalist, threw the depth charge into the water, got on his boat and drove away and drove. He uh, what do boats do? They float. Anyway, he left the scene. He had every right to do that.

I, you know, that’s his job as a journalist report, let you decide, I’m sticking around as long as people have me. This entire book is about trying to get to your question, trying to get more impact in communities that desperately need these funds. That’s it. My question from the beginning has been and still is, how do we get more money out there to these communities and give them voice in the process in some way?

So. Perpetuity is, in my opinion, one of those significant barriers, [00:24:00] bricks in the wall that prevents the money from coming out. I think it’s probably the biggie.

Eric: Hmm.

Glen: I think it’s the biggie, the result of all these things we tell ourselves within this narrative. I’ll stop there ’cause you wanted a quick answer, but it is, we can go through it, but there are so many aspects to the concept of perpetuity that are so irrational to me and so counter to what we’re all trying to achieve.

Eric: Well, okay, so your, your book is screaming to me for some policy changes, the ways that we treat philanthropy and the money that philanthropy you take, the tax deduction. Do you have two or three things that you would change about the system if you could waive your Glen Gallic magic wand?

Glen: Okay, so let me just say as a disclaimer, I’m nervous about policy work in the sector.

Nervous about it. And because it depends. There’s so much involved in who gets to make what in rules. We saw an [00:25:00] attempt at a significant, well lightly significant rule change last year with an attempt to put attacks on the earnings, on the portfolios of foundations. I think it’s totally appropriate for the American people to start asking, why are we giving wealthy people so much money to give away when they don’t give it away?

Right? That’s fair. But I’m nervous about who determines the policy, all that. So this book really is at its core about the one thing we all have the power to do, and it is change our minds. We can change our minds.

Eric: Okay.

Glen: And that is what I’m really calling for in the book now from a policy standpoint. If people don’t change their minds and these monies start to pile up and they are going to pile up, research shows that with the current transfer of wealth from one wealthy generation to what will be another wealthy generation, as that transfer happens, money’s [00:26:00] gonna go into more tax exemption, money’s gonna go into more tax savings.

We’re gonna see these foundations and donor advised funds amass $18 trillion in the next 25 years. I wonder, will Americans stand for that? If the budget stays somewhere where it is now, which is probably unlikely in 25 years, you will have two budgets worth of capital sitting in these accounts doing things that are probably making the world worse.

So that’s, that could require policy if we don’t change our mindset. And so that’s really what I’m pushing in the book. Some policies that we could consider are giving away as much as you earn, you know. If you earn 13 to 20% in 2025, you’re required to give that out in 2026. Other policies could be, you and I have talked about this, you do not get the tax exemption until the money actually reaches the donor organization.

That’s how the rest of us [00:27:00] are treated.

Eric: Yep.

Glen: And for most people, they don’t even get a tax deduction for being charitable. They only need to incentivize the wealthy to give away money. So those are a couple of things that we could see that might incentivize more money going out, but I, it still would only scratch edge.

And I think there’s so much more that can be done if we just shift our mindset.

Eric: I thought you were gonna squirm outta my question, but you didn’t. You came back and you actually answered, I came back

Glen: to

Eric: you. It’s a very proud of you. Uh, let’s,

Glen: but that’s kinda my approach, Eric. I go all the way out, you know, if we’re in San Francisco, we go all the way out to Omaha and then we come back to San Francisco.

I, I, we’ll get back to you. Just hang in there,

Eric: but it’s not very fuel efficient, but, but it works. Let, let’s talk about all that money that these foundations are sitting on you. You’ve also talked a lot about the investments that foundations make and the money should be used for good and not for bad. Can you talk a little bit about your own experience at St.

Stub Ski? Yeah. In confronting these, uh, let’s call ’em on. Comfortable truths about how do you invest money and where does it go and how do [00:28:00] all that stuff.

Glen: Yeah, there’s some really irrational and really challenging aspects to wine to be in perpetuity, and one is you have to earn at least on average, at least 5%, if not 6% every year, to ensure that when you give away 5% you get it back.

That’s of course way below what most foundations will earn. Why is that? Because they are in crazy high risk investments. It’s not Wall Street, actually, but we had not much in Wall Street. We had stuff in hedge funds that I didn’t even understand. I didn’t know they were, I had a spreadsheet in front of me and I’d look at the spreadsheet and it would say recovering economies.

Whatever that is. I went online, we were on in the midst of COVID. We weren’t in person for our investment committee meetings, so it was a chance for me to like, while they were going on about investee talk, I would look on the screen and just kind of go through the websites of our various fund managers.

I found out that three of them were in the Grand Cayman Islands.

Eric: Oh,

Glen: so [00:29:00] think about that one, right? We are a tax dodging entity, investing in tax dodging entities. We are undermining government activity first by taking away the taxes, second by taking away the taxes. So that, that was really stunning to me.

And we had some casino stuff and so you could say, well, that’s Stu Ski. They were clearly just doing dark stuff, but I can promise you promise. I don’t even want to know. Actually. I do want to know, but I’m, I know it’s gonna be like one of those where you kind squint your eyes when you look at the balance sheet.

Where the big dogs have their money. I can’t imagine where Gates is invested, MacArthur, all these guys to be able to crank out the kind of returns they’re getting. Then of course, very few really put anything into impact investing. They’ll do a carve out of a few percentage points, but the rest of it is in stuff that is most definitely harming human beings at greater volume than the amount we put [00:30:00] out in grants by far nine to one.

Eric: So what did you do at dsky?

Glen: Divested completely when the opportunity arose. So that that really meant that we, you know, when I came on, Joyce and the other board members were strong believers and we need to make money to give money. That is the, that is the underlying tenet of how we think in the foundation sector.

Is that a bad intention? No, not at all. To intend to give, make money. To give money. It’s kind of the. There’s the altruism folks that believe that way. There are many others that believe that way. It’s kind of a tenant of what we believe is important to philanthropy. But what happens when, what that gives you permission to do is ignore what you’re invested in because it’s gonna go to good things when it grows.

I got to a place where I was like, Hey, look, we, it’s too risky. Everything we do is too risky in the for-profit [00:31:00] side. And when Joyce had passed away, and many of her board members had left, new board members came on, I said, Hey, would anyone be open to just divesting completely out of anything that makes money?

And guess what we did? And guess what the response was? So the fund managers, when you give them money, they take it right away and they, they, they’re ready to go.

Eric: Right.

Glen: But when you ask for it back before they want to give it back, well that’s a process. It takes time depending on what you’re in, if you’re in some really crazy private equity stuff as we were, they do not have to give it back.

Right. Do not Until they think it’s time. So we sold all of that on the secondary market, which we know, which is a process, but it worked and we are, we moved everything into cash essentially.

Eric: Wow. Wow. That’s incredible. So it’s just sitting on, in on, in what I mean, T-bills and

Glen: Yeah, exactly. Money markets sitting in T-bills, it still earns a little money.

’cause if that’s something you need, you can do that. But what we really found [00:32:00] exciting was we moved about 30 million of it in no interest loans to various community lenders so they could earn the interest for themselves. Right. We didn’t need it and we just asked them to please give it back to us in five years so we can pay salaries and things.

’cause it was operational. That’s been an incredible success.

Eric: Wow. Is there any, I

Glen: strongly encourage it.

Eric: Is there anybody else at your size that’s doing that, that you know of?

Glen: I don’t. Most do pri i, the famous PRRI program related investments. Right. They have to, they’re trying to get some percentage back.

They have to impress their investment committee people that they are going to get money back. So that idea of no interest, which is the winner in this story. It’s one thing to do a PRI and I think it’s many do Ps, lots of Ps out there, and that’s great. But if you can do it without any interest on it, where there’s no interest in making money, you really, I mean, it dramatically changes the picture on the other side.

Eric: And the PI is you’ll invest in an organization or you’ll make a loan or something like that. Yeah. And you’ll, [00:33:00] you’ll take a return on it. Usually three or 4% That’s below market, but it’s still That’s

Glen: right.

Eric: Something and

Glen: Yep, that’s right.

Eric: And you’re saying,

Glen: but what if you don’t? What if you don’t?

Eric: Right.

Glen: And that there are some, so many creative, creative ways that. Some of these lenders have used the money and in some cases they’ve, you know, like all cases they’re, they are charging interest on their end. It is nowhere near what the commercial lenders charge, and they are using that funding for their own operation.

That’s the challenge of A PRI is that you’re giving it out to loan and that person’s gonna loan it too, but they don’t tend to pay their own operations with it.

Eric: Right.

Glen: And so anyway, that’s another conversation, another conversation

Eric: for another. Maybe you do another book on that. What, what are two or three kind of realistic but ambitious things that you hope happen as a result of this book?

Glen: So I want to be really clear up front for people that know me, they know me as the spend down guy,

Eric: right?

Glen: And that’s because I love the spend down model. There’s no, I can’t, you know, when we talked [00:34:00] four years ago, you asked me, can you see a scenario where you wouldn’t spend down? And I said, I can,

Eric: right?

Glen: That has not changed. It’s only gotten more reinforced. And so, but this book is actually not about spending down as an objective. It is a reality. I truly believe that if you are in this to give money away, and that’s what you’re in it for, and you are in it to give money on mission and you’re in it to give money in a way that the community needs it, you cannot avoid spending down.

So, so now I’m gonna break my own rule that I just set out. Yes. I would see it as a huge success if a higher percentage of foundations go into spend down, not because they should, not because that’s the win, but because they will need to by necessity to be a truly public community engaged steward. So what I mean by that is, let’s just do this one thing.[00:35:00]

If you go to any organization and you say. I want to give you $10. Do you want it? They’re probably gonna say yes. They’re not gonna say, well actually, here’s a better idea. Why don’t you keep the 10? We’ll take 50 cents on the 10 and we’ll use it this year. In fact, if you were really good about this, you’re gonna earn on that 10, on that nine 50, you’re gonna save back in your account.

So how about if you give us a dollar 50 spread over three years, you are gonna grow to like that 10, that that nine 50 will probably grow in your account to like 13, $14. And then you, we’ll come back to you in three years and we’ll ask you for another dollar 50 over three years while you grow that money for, I don’t know, somebody,

Eric: wow.

Glen: That’s a, I don’t think that’s how,

Eric: that sounds like a great deal for the nonprofit, doesn’t it? Who Everybody wins

Glen: it is that, [00:36:00] and that is how the system works. It’s that simple. What if. We did it differently. What if you said, do you need $10? And they said yes. And you said, okay, here it is. So to do that means it can’t be tied up in recovering economies.

It can’t be tied up in hedge funds. You have to keep it out of that harmful stuff and make it available to the organizations. And if you’re doing all that, you are spending down.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah.

Glen: And so that, that’s, that’s it. There’s plenty, there’s a, there’s a chapter in the book on spending down. I think people may be a little surprised with how I approach that chapter in that I don’t, again, it’s not the out, it’s not the objective of the book to get you to spend down, although it is a decent outcome.

I’m basically trying to convince you as you read that final chapter of the book, that it’s okay, you’re gonna be all right. Right. If you need a hug, I’m always here and I’m not, I can’t say I’m good at giving hugs, but I am. I will try. Because [00:37:00] I believe so much in the fact that this money needs to be in motion.

And if we’ve ever seen evidence for it right now, right now,

Eric: well, this, it needs

Glen: to move.

Eric: This book is a great big hug to all of the nonprofit organizations out there who rely on the resources that foundations have that are sitting on, and if any, foundation with a, within the sound of our voice, here’s this, the understanding about putting the money into the communities and into the issues that you care about, that that is.

Ought to be what you’re in business for, not to live forever. And I, I think that, I mean, the book is terrific. I can’t wait to read it again. I, well,

Glen: thank you for all your support, Eric. You’ve been amazing. And your help,

Eric: congratulations on it. It’s, it’s control. Why big giving fall short drops on March 17th?

I’m going to, if you’re hearing this, it’s, it is quite possible that today is the day the book, uh, came out. Wow. We’re gonna really try and line that up.

Glen: Wow.

Eric: Wow. But, but you know, we have, we have constraints. [00:38:00] We don’t have fancy producers like some other people I know.

Glen: Is that right?

Eric: That’s

Glen: who are they?

That’s those people. They sound like trouble.

Eric: They are. Glenn. It has been so much fun having these conversations over the years. It’s been really fun, co-hosting your show. The, the log rolling is, is kind of dizzying, but congratulations on this book. Congratulations on your work. Thank you for everything. I don’t, I I’m, I’m speechless.

Glen: Well, I really back at you. I, you know, it all began, Eric, with conversations in the hallway at Hewlett, and I’ve learned so much from you over the years and I’m just grateful for all the support you have provided. Your feedback was definitely taken in. You made it sound like I ignored all of it at the start.

You had a major impact on this book, and I do hope that it causes a conversation and shifts some minds. That’s really what we’re after, and we all still want to be friends in the end. Thank you.

Eric: Well, Glen Galles, thank you again.

Kirk: And we’re back. So, [00:39:00] okay. I wanna know when I start screaming, it’s not gonna be, now I do wanna say thank you to Glen. ’cause Glen is a benefactor of this podcast and we’re enormously grateful.

Eric: Yes, we are.

Kirk: Um, Glen was also on this podcast years ago when, who said, write your book.

Eric: Oh, who

Kirk: said it?

Eric: You have to back away from the microphone because you’re gonna pin it.

People don’t need to hear that. Kind of a abuse you said, said, but Glen is said you told Glen to write the book.

Kirk: Glen has written the book. So I, we do need a ground rule here because we have, we have the copy. We’ve both gone through it. Yes. The, the, whatever you call it. And so I don’t think we could, we can’t give away the book.

We don’t have enough time to do that. But, but how specifically do we get to talk about the content? Because, because Glen. Shows receipts. Glen, yes. Works this through. And in fact, maybe I’ll just turn, let me turn the floor over Eric, because you can carry us through the high points and, and I, I loved how you said that he had sent you an advanced draft and you got really upset because [00:40:00] you thought that Glen hadn’t gone far enough.

Eric: Yeah, I thought he was being a little wimpy.

Kirk: Whoa, goodness gracious. He went pretty far. So, so where do you wanna take this? ’cause there’s a lot of directions I could point us in, but, but where, where do you wanna take this and how should we do this? So, you know, we do justice to the content here, which is so important, but we don’t actually give away anything about

Eric: everything that’s in it.

And then people will buy it anyway. Because we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna read the book. This is not, you know, one of those things where you sit down and you read through a book all night in an art gallery or something like that. No, but we can say as much as we want about what’s in this book, I promise you that, and you should buy it anyway.

If you care about philanthropy, about where it can go and about the rules, and, you know, his show is called Break Fake Rules. And, and it’s about breaking the fake rules about philanthropy that you can only pay out 5%. There’s all these rules that in philanthropy we have, they’re, they’ve become rules and mm-hmm.

And he’s saying that’s they’re fake, they’re bullshit. And, and we have to break them if we’re going to actually use philanthropy to do well. And so that’s the thesis of this book and book was [00:41:00] infuriating to me in all the right ways. And it was a reminder to me, and this was something like I worked for in a foundation for 11 years.

I understand what foundations are, I get how it works, but, but this notion that once you set up a foundation and take a, a tax deduction, that it’s not your money anymore, didn’t occur to me. It didn’t occur to me and and now it does. And so this idea, if you want a big, great, big, beautiful tax deduction, then you have to give away the control.

You have to give the money away. No strings attached. You sure you get to pick who gets it, but then you can’t tell them what to do with it. You just have to give them the money. And instead what people do is they set up these big foundations, they take the tax deduction and then they dribble the money out with an eye dropper, 5%, 5 cents on the dollar, and the 95% of the money which sits in some kind of investment account, which is often, if not invariably invested in stuff that [00:42:00] is against the things that you’re making grants to stop, which is another one of those things that blows my mind.

And look, I know some very important foundations that still have that investment strategy, and I disagree with it. But the idea that you can do that. Doesn’t make sense ’cause we’re taking all this money outta the system. We’re giving these rich people a huge tax break. And then they get to go, you get a little money, you get a little money, you don’t get anything.

Mm-hmm. You get it. Only if you dance around three times and do that dance that you do when you’re happy. That kinda stuff. And look, Kirk, you’ve been a grantee of foundations, so you know what I’m talking about

Kirk: Until, until this podcast, until, until this steps

Eric: a drop. But that strategy that, like, it’s, it’s wrong.

And so I came up with some policy ideas that mm-hmm. That Glenn said, I couldn’t say on his show, but I can say I’m on my show even though he funds me, but it’s fine. [00:43:00] So I came up with three, three ideas. Okay. Policy things. Okay. Two of them are pretty good and one of ’em, I have no idea what I’m talking about, but the first one.

Is that you should only be able to get a tax deduction for no strings attached grants. So if you put your, slap your name on the building,

Kirk: no

Eric: tax deduction for you, if you have the some narrow project restriction, no tax, like no soup for you. If you wanna name a building, knock yourself out, mazeltov, but you don’t get a tax deduction.

Your money, you can do whatever you want with it, but I, Mr. Taxpayer, don’t have to give you a discount. Same thing for these like narrow project, very defined things. Oh, you need to hire, you know, 11, seven people to do this little project about whatever reading for people who are between eight and 11 and a half years old.

And then you pull the money the next year and then those people are stuck holding the bag [00:44:00] that’s gotta go. So that’s it. Ooh. Here’s another one. You can set up your foundation. You don’t get the deduction until the money goes out the door. For general support grants.

Kirk: Hmm.

Eric: So you set up a billion dollar foundation, no tax deduction.

You put out a hundred million dollars a year in general support grant, a hundred million dollar tax deduction. How clever you could do that? That would be wonderful that, that, and that would encourage people to get the money out the door instead of sitting there. 90%, 5% of which is doing nothing. And the third one has to do with this impact investing, taking the money and using it for bad and as opposed to using it for good.

I don’t have a good answer for that. Some smart person out there can figure it out. But the idea that you would, that you would invest this tax deductible, tax advantage, tax preferred money in things like military and prisons and stuff like that, just makes me nuts. So

Kirk: well, and this is, that’s the bridge to all of the ground that Glen is traveling with this book.

And I will say, can we just pause for a moment and just [00:45:00] reflect that Glen has actually just written a great book here, apart from the content, but the way he gets into it, the way he, this is full of his first person narrative around his work within philanthropy, his work with his foundation. And so just from that standpoint, if you’ve never had a chance to do what Eric has done, which is like live inside the walls for 11 years, this is a chance to actually get you into the walls, get, get you inside the door into a story that most of us wouldn’t have access to.

This is where it gets really interesting and also very uncomfortable though because, you know, if you’ve worked in and around major philanthropy, what Glen is putting out is that we are, we are asking everybody to fight as much as they can for this 5% of the dollars that come out. Right. And maybe some foundations are much more aggressive.

They’re, you know, they’re maybe delivering 5, 6, 7, 8, 9%. The point Glen makes though, however you structure that math. These philanthropies are actually growing over time.

Eric: Right.

Kirk: So the dollars are sitting behind locked doors. Yeah. And however you’re structuring that payout, the, the actual philanthropies is growing [00:46:00] over time.

One of the things I love that he does at his book, by the way, is he, he gives us kind of this walk through the history of how this evolved in the United States and some of the sensibilities behind it. And, and I think it’s fair to say that one of the key sensibilities is that judgment, decision making and control.

Yeah. Lends happily titled name, first book that lives on the capital side. If you’re on, if you’re on the asking side, well, if you, if you align with what we think is important, we, we can talk. Yeah. You’ve got no control. But the, what’s important is sitting on the capital side and, and this is where I get concerned for all of us.

’cause this feels a little bit like, I’m not gonna mention it, I’m not gonna name it, but it’s been all over the news. This whole thing about like a, wow, maybe something really secret was going on for all these years and all these people were involved with it and we’re all getting these little glimpses, and now how toxic is.

But this notion that the five, you mean. I’m not gonna say it you, the notion, the notion that the 5%, we get to debate how the 5% gets spent, [00:47:00] but the 95% don’t even look at it. No, don’t even look at it. And, and this is, this is for eyes, me eyes. This is for me the most interesting and troubling part. Glen brings the spotlight in, Glen brings the flashlight and says, let’s look at what’s going on with that 95%.

And honestly, Eric, that part. Read the book just for those pieces. And he, he mentions it in the interview when you start talking about the caveman islands. Yeah. In the context of your investment vehicles. I’m out at that point. I just need a long vacation. I’m just out. I can’t be part of this.

Eric: So he did this crazy thing.

I, I have a few, a couple other things I wanna say first, and then I’m gonna talk about the crazy thing. So he called the book The Mindset of Control. Mm-hmm. And my, my biggest critique of him was, I said, the book should have been called, it’s Not Their Money anymore. So that every time anybody asked you about the book, you got to say what your thesis was, which is, it’s not their money anymore.

And he talks about the mindset of control, which I thought was. Like a, a garden party talk. Mm-hmm. [00:48:00] This is about the problem of, of control. The catastrophe of control. The injustice of control. But no, he’s, he is nice enough to not try and piss off philanthropy too hard by calling it the mindset of control.

That was my big thing now. Oh. So the thing that he did was, so he found out that they were invested in the Cayman Islands. They were invested in all these other places that he didn’t want and in things that he didn’t care about. So what’d he do? He took all the money out and he put it in T bonds. Right.

Bills.

Kirk: Right. Four percent’s enough basic interest is enough.

Eric: Yeah. Whatever. And, and so like, that blew my mind. And then he started, he, then he started just lending the money out at no interest.

Kirk: Right.

Eric: To folks. So he took, but the crucial thing, money put it into the community in, in interesting ways that. You know that nobody does not like that.

Kirk: And the, and the crucial thing he’s doing there, by the way that he names and he talked about in your interview, but I just wanna bring it up again. He says, our first job is not to make money off of this money.

Eric: Right? [00:49:00]

Kirk: And, and, and, and that is such a headline sensibility that most philanthropies their first job before Penny is out the door is to actually take the asset and grow it.

Right? That’s the first job. Job. And just from their lens say, this is where everything gets upside down. Everything gets upside down. If 95% of what you’re doing is to make that thing bigger, then this is where all the problems start from.

Eric: So I had a conversation with an investment advisor re recently, and I said, Ooh, this guy at this foundation, he took all the money out of all these ridiculously, whatever they’re called, boutique investments and hedge funds and whatever the hell.

And he put it into T TBIs and cash. And that person went, that’s insane.

Kirk: But I love Glen talking about we’re doing this. Teaspoon version of philanthropy. I wanna do a tidal wave version of philanthropy. And the tidal wave is what happens when you give all of, when you do the spend down, which KY is doing.

Glen gives us the comparative numbers [00:50:00] that I think it’s something like, you know, teaspoon size giving would’ve been St. Ski delivering $160 million or something like that. But because of how they’re doing their spend down, it’s gonna be $600 million, right? Comes into market. And so that’s the scale. When you, when you look at that 95% and you say, Hey, let’s, let’s put that into market.

Um, all of the numbers change in terms of what the level of impact you can get to might be.

Eric: Well now also think about all this money that’s sitting there right now. What do we say? What is it? $2 trillion right now?

Kirk: $2 trillion.

Eric: And he said something like, in the next 25 years. That foundations and donor-advised funds could amass 18, $18 trillion.

Get to

Kirk: $18 trillion.

Eric: You can actually get some stuff done with $18 trillion. That’s not chump change. And unlocking that money, that’s just money that’s sitting in these charitable accounts. We’re not talking about whatever, you know, gross domestic product. We’re talking about money that is [00:51:00] sitting there earning interest, but not doing anything.

It’s, it’s sequestered, right.

Kirk: Yeah. And so there’s the financial component of this, but there’s also, you know, um, Glen talks about the wall of control that grows up around these philanthropies. And so there’s, there’s another uncomfortable part of that. It’s not just the money where it sits. It’s not just where it gets invested, but it’s also who gets to have a say,

Glen: right?

Kirk: And how that money is allocated. And, and honestly, I mean. Glenn just goes through this chapter in verse, so again, you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta read the book, but one general topic that that just comes up around it is that it’s, it’s both the sort of familial aspects of how that control gets directed in terms of how certain foundations are, are sorted out.

But also there’s a notion of, of what professional power looks like in this context. You know, because you’re a professional, you’ve learned to work the system. And then, then there, there’s another element of this too, which is when we start labeling philanthropies things like strategic philanthropy, now [00:52:00] we’re, now we’re really rolling because, ’cause the whole notion of where that strategy lives, how it gets determined, what are the criteria that it meets, again, which side of that.

Asset wall is it sitting, is sitting at the center of the table when we talk about strategy. And Glen’s saying it’s, it’s sitting on the 95% threshold. It’s not sitting on the 5% threshold. So, so this control that was being discussed and described is actually working in so many different dimensions, and Glen does, does just an awesome job of laying all that out.

Eric: Yeah. It, I tell you, he’s, he’s an interesting guy. He was a radio news talk guy for, for several years. So he had to fill four hours of radio time talking about political talk.

Kirk: Yeah.

Eric: And that he honed his ability to synthesize, let’s just say.

Kirk: Yeah.

Eric: And, and to come up with things that are provocative and interesting.

And the books absolutely positively does that. Like I said, it, it really just opened my eyes to a lot of things [00:53:00] that I should have known. You know, I get around, I talk to people. I have a, a job in this field and I still kind of didn’t see it. So I, I won’t be too mean to people who also didn’t see it. Like I didn’t.

But I do think that now that the cat’s outta the bag here, I would hope that he doesn’t get the kind of crickets that I’m scared he’s gonna get within philanthropy. ’cause I think he even mentioned that he, he kind of referenced this in some, some meaning and like people were really interested in changing the subject that that ought not to happen anymore.

And if you think about it, people are not starting new, large endowed private foundations anymore. They do not see it as the best vehicle for bringing about social change.

Kirk: Yeah.

Eric: And if, if you’re in the philanthropy business, it is a business that needs to adapt in order to meet the needs of the people that these places were set up to meet.

And I, I really, really hope that [00:54:00] boards of directors are going to start. Sniffing this stuff. I mean, our conversation with Alicia Ariaga a couple of times ago earlier, you know, was, was about this disconnect. The funders just don’t get it.

Kirk: Absolute,

Eric: absolutely. And, and if this book doesn’t kind of put a cherry on the top at their cake, I don’t know what does.

Kirk: So get ready ’cause I’ve got a couple great ideas.

Eric: Ready. Oh, oh, no, no. Oh, ideas where you had the ideas and other people do work. Is that the idea?

Kirk: So number one, number 1, 1, 1 subtle thread in this, and we agree sitting 95% of the asset is beyond reach, doing what it does. And everybody talks about the 5%. We, we, we agree that, that that’s right.

Problematic. I do think one, one thing we need to sort out is. How often does more money equal more impact in how you get to that threat? Because, ’cause I think it almost, we take that as a given, and I think we have so many evidence cases where that’s clear. We wanna release more dollars into the field.

You made the point, it’s like there’s [00:55:00] all these resources out there, yet all these nonprofits are, are, you know, um, collapsing or, or seeing, you know, given how, and actually the, the, the anecdotes from the book focused on c told the exact same story. You know, that COVID happens in so many philanthropies pulled back instead of leaning again.

Right. So I think, so I think there’s some work to be done about just ensuring that, as we say, we want more money into the field, we really can draw that line to more money equals more impact. But the other word that I would love to see Glen work with a little bit is this word community, which is all over the book because one, one of this is, this is put forward as the sort of alternative is that a more community centered approach would make sense.

And I think that there’s actually something there where. You know, we use community as a normative tool, but we also use community as a systems concept when we actually get into the work. So here’s the idea. There’s a sequel Glen,

Eric: oh, there’s an idea in this.

Kirk: There’s a sequel Glen,

Eric: a sequel.

Kirk: Glen Glen has a sequel, and this is the, and the sequel is called Beyond Control.

And then Glen is gonna go out and he’s gonna look at all the [00:56:00] community centered philanthropy resources. He’s gonna look at all the trust-based resources. He is gonna draw from his own experience, and he’s actually going to create a real workbook centered roadmap for how philanthropies can do this. Push more money into the center of the table, link that to community driven outcomes, but actually define community in, in, in a nuanced way so that we put some real legs behind what that word means.

’cause I mean, think, you know, you and I work on a project together that, that, um, I believe could. Change everything in America. But the notion of going to people and saying, Hey, we need to make community the center of our consideration, is really, really difficult for people that are out their heads around what that word really means.

And until you kind of look at that in a systems centered way and see how all the dimensions of community can stack up to become this scalable, stackable resource, which by the way, I would argue our opposition has actually done a better job of holding that sensibility than we have maybe for the people that share the values that we, we put forward.

So I think there’s a sequel here. So I want this book to do [00:57:00] well. I want everybody to read it. And then I want G Glenn to sit down immediately, sit down immediately, and start writing beyond control. Because ’cause, ’cause this has got to be operationalized, 95% of the value that’s gonna accrue to this $18 trillion of resource.

Is going to sit beyond, uh, reach unless it actually gets operationalized in terms of how it moves into the field. And I, I couldn’t imagine a better person to do that than Glen.

Eric: I was Right. You were going to make work for other people.

Kirk: Well, come on. So, oh my goodness. Glen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

It’s Beyond Control,

Eric: not Beyond Controlled.

Kirk: I’m sorry, what? Sorry. This is the sequel. Sorry, sorry. So Glen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It’s Control Why Big Giving Falls Short and it’s gonna be out March 17, which is today. That’s today, which is out today. And please, please get your hands on this.

Read it, respond to it. You can go to steps to get steps.org/control and and see it. And there’s even a free chapter for download [00:58:00] there if you wanna check it out. You know, so,

Eric: and when you’re done, and now that we’re done with this episode, you can go over to break Fake Rules and you can listen to me talk about the book On his podcast we took over his.

His podcast and we talked about, about his book over there. So we will hear actual foundation CEOs talking, not a couple of schmos like us, but actual people who have real money, make

Kirk: real decisions,

Eric: see what they think about this concept. That’s us. So that’s, that’s a, a good conversation too. So I, I encourage you to go over there too.

This, this is how much we love each other

Kirk: and break, break fake rules, come straight out. It’s a chapter from the book too. So he’s got a whole platform now to, to work on this stuff. So that’s great. Well, Glen, thank you so much for coming on. Let’s hear it. We’re so excited. Eric, thank you for doing this on let’s hear it then do it on Glen’s podcast too.

And, and please pick up this book, engage with it. Glen, what a contribution. And if you never hear from us again, it’s because we spoke the truth and now we can’t work anymore.

Glen: But, but I’m happy to, I’m happy to do it. So, Glen, thanks for doing this. And, and Eric, thanks for, thanks for doing this for, for us.

Eric: What a [00:59:00] way

Glen: to

Eric: go.

Glen: Let’s go. Go with a peg. Okay, everybody, we’ll see you. Hopefully we’ll see you next time and let’s hear it.

Kirk: Okay everybody, that’s it for this episode. Please let us know if you have any thoughts about what you heard today or people we should have on this show, and that definitely includes yourself.

And we’d like to thank John Ali, the tuneful and inspiring composer of our theme music,

Eric: our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,

Kirk: and please check out Lumina’s terrific podcast, today’s students tomorrow’s talent, and you can find that@luminafoundation.org.

Eric: We certainly thank today’s guest, and of course, all of you,

Kirk: and most importantly, thank you, Mr.

Brown.

Eric: Oh, no, no, no, no. Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk: Okay, everybody, till next time.

Oh God. Can we do that again? So I can say it again? Yeah. [01:00:00] Jesus Christ. God damn it. Okay.