Making Meaning of the Madness with Kristen Grimm

Kirk: Welcome to Let’s Hear It.

Eric: Let’s Hear It is a podcast for and about the field of foundation and nonprofit communications produced by its two co-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown. No relation.

Kirk: Well said Eric. And I’m Kirk.

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Kirk: You can find Let’s Hear It on any podcast subscription platform.

Eric: You can find us online at letshearicast.com.

Kirk: And if you’d like the show, please, please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts so that more people can find us. Let’s get onto the show.

Eric: So, Kirk, we’ve started [00:01:00] having you say, welcome in again.

Kirk: Yeah, welcome in.

Eric: I think we need to be more welcoming.

Kirk: Welcome in. Hey everybody. Let’s hear it. Yeah. But I’ve also noticed you started in front of me in the cold open. You’re, if we’re going to do this cold open, it’s going to be my cold open. And that’s fine. I support it. I support it.

It’s like I know what it must’ve been like being on stage with you, being on tv. It’s like all of a sudden, why is Eric in my shot? It’s terrible. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Why is Eric? Yeah, no one’s great. Welcome in. Welcome in everybody. It’s Let’s Hear It.

Eric: Being on stage with me is the worst kind of hell.

Kirk: One of the favorite things. Being on a podcast with you is a wonderful kind of habit, so that’s a nice little counterpoint to that.

Kristen: You’re so cute.

Kirk: Kirky. Let’s spend some time. Let’s spend some time with some dinosaurs today. Let’s spend some time with some dinosaurs of public interest communications.

You’re going to hear that phrase in this interview, and I don’t like it. I don’t like it. You and Kristen self-describe each other as dinosaurs of public interest communications. I don’t recall that.

Eric: So it doesn’t happen.

Kirk: I recall it. It happened. It’s going to be, unless you take it out of the end.

I just give you there and [00:02:00] I’m going to stridently push back. Okay. I think what we have ahead is a nuanced, interesting, thoughtful, oh my gosh. Reflective discussion about what communications looks like in the moment we’re in. And Kristen, because Kristen’s a very competitive person, decided that it was not okay for Kristen and Larry Kramer to be the only people.

As I think I’ve got this right, the only people who had been on Let’s Hear It twice.

Eric: No, that’s not true.

Kirk: Who is the other person?

Eric: Christiana.

Kirk: Oh, and Christiana, right? So three people in this world of 9 billion people, 10 billion people who have been on. Let’s hear it twice. Kristen said, no, there will be one.

There will be one who’s been on. Let’s hear it three times. And there’s nothing that makes me happier here than to listen to you and Kristen talk about stuff. So set this up. Reintroduce Kristen, and this is an incredibly generous use of Kristen’s time to come back to Let’s Hear It and talk with us about.

This work that Kristen has been working on,

Eric: my old [00:03:00] pal and longtime colleague who I knew before the turn of the century, Kristen Grimm, who is the founder of Spitfire Strategies, one of the great organizations firms out there. There’s a lot of great ones and many of ’em been on our show and Spitfires right up there.

And Kristen, you’re right, she’s competitive and I don’t think that she goes about and does a whole bunch of work just so that she can get it on Let’s Hear It. I do not think that that’s true. I think she is just indomitable, unstoppable, indefatigable, an Energizer Bunny of ideas. And she had a recent series that she wrote on the Spitfire blog about meaning making.

And we get into this conversation, this concept of making meaning in public interest communications, in movements, in all of that stuff. And that’s what we had the conversation about.

Kirk: And I’d say this is one of [00:04:00] Kristen’s many gifts, but it’s such an awesome one, which is the capacity to distill these concepts, put them into frameworks that we can all understand then write and train on them.

And so this meaning making series, it’s four different blog posts. Please go to the Spitfire Strategies website to check it out, and you’ll see all the content around what Eric and Kristen are about to talk about. So this is Kristen Grimm, the founder and strategist of Spitfire Strategies.

Let’s hear it. Let’s listen and we’ll come back.

Eric: Welcome to Let’s Hear It. My guest today is none other than the incomparable. Kristen Grimm, the founder of Spitfire Strategies and wait for the very long drum roll. The first, third time guest. Let’s Hear It. That is correct. Now, Kristen, you first appeared on the show in April of 2019.

Kristen: Yes,

Eric: and it feels like it was yesterday. We [00:05:00] go back, it

Kristen: was backstage at Frank.

Eric: We were, and we go back way before that. I think we go back to the turn of the century.

Kristen: It’s true. We have been around a long time. We have seen a lot. We have a lot of wisdom.

Eric: We have,

Kristen: people are talking about lived experience.

They might be thinking about the dinosaurs of public interest, communication,

Eric: whatever was, I have forgotten all my wisdom. Now I’m just running on, I don’t know. Something. Well, thank you Kristen, so much for coming on to let’s hear it. It’s always a joy to talk to you and to see you and thank you.

Kristen: Always good to be here with you all.

I know you are always tackling the important topics, so an honor to be your first, third time guest. I know I will not be the last.

Eric: Well, and you are coming to us from Bozeman, Montana. Are you now?

Kristen: Bozeman, Montana. One of the flyover states.

Eric: So I actually, I don’t think I’ve ever fully asked you this question, but why did you move to Montana?

It seems a little different.

Kristen: That is what my Florida [00:06:00] family always says too. They’re like, what? In 2016 when President Trump won the first time, I didn’t really see that coming. So I loaded up my family and dogs and I bought a little Airstream trailer, and I went out on the road for four to five months out of the year.

Trying to really understand what was going on in America. You know, how are people feeling, et cetera. And I kept running into Bozeman, Montana. I kept finding myself here. And so in year two, went back out, another couple of months, kept finding myself here in Bozeman, Montana. So in 2018, I decided I would do six months and six months.

And mostly it was meant to be the six months around summer again as a Floridian. But when COVID hit, I moved here full time and. It is actually, first of all, stunningly beautiful, but fascinating people. Very interesting to be here. I’ve been in DC for a long time, so it is [00:07:00] really good to be out in the communities that people are often talking about and actually be part of it.

Eric: We will get to the topic of this conversation today, but I do think it lays the groundwork for it. So, which is why I asked the question. because most people, if they want to learn about what’s going on in the world, they read a newspaper. Or they, I don’t know, get a subscription to some really trenchant political thing, like the New Yorker, or they read the New York Times, or they listen to NPR and they get, you know, some version of something, but you get an Airstream trailer.

Kristen: Yep. I learned how to camp. I learned about the greatest democratic institution in America, which is a campground. You know, you’re all dealing with it. You’re all dealing with the mosquitoes. You’re all trying to get to the potable water. So I think it’s really good when things are up in the air, when you don’t understand, it’s good to not just download it from somebody else[00:08:00]

and adopt it without doing a whole lot of thinking. And I think when things are happening that are really different than you expected, it’s important to stop and say, huh, what’s going on here that I’m missing and that I need to tune into. So I think generally speaking, that’s good practice for meaning making.

Eric: Yeah. And my guess is that your fellow campers don’t all just read the New York Times, the New Yorker and listen to NPR.

Kristen: They definitely do not, but they are highly informed about their own lives. And one thing I really learned in the trailer in particular was there were definitely times I’d be in meetings about we’ve got to go out and communicate.

I can only imagine they’re going on right now with. Budget cuts and staff cuts and do folks out in rural counties, many of them surrounding me here right now, do they not understand it’s their SNAP benefits. They’re going to not have their SNAP benefits. They need to understand then I’m like, you don’t [00:09:00] get it.

Like they’re so mad that they’re on SNAP benefits that they don’t think like, oh, the government’s doing. This great thing for me, they think they’re on SNAP benefits. People don’t want to be on SNAP benefits. They want to be living independently and inevitably you hear somebody say in the meeting like, why are they voting against their own self-interest?

And what I really came to understand is I don’t know what their self-interest is. When I’m saying those words, I don’t know. They do know. You know, and so then you have to say like, okay, what are they voting for? Let’s get clear what they’re voting for. because I’m making a whole bunch of assumptions.

And I probably am the least qualified to do that.

Eric: Well, you’ve now just written this series of essays on what you call meaning making. And my guess is that this set of essays. Connects directly to that conversation that you have with so many people about why don’t people vote their interests when we don’t actually have a sense of what they true those interests truly are.

Eric: Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by [00:10:00] meaning making, and then we can get into why you wrote this series and what you hope to do with it.

Kristen: Yeah. I mean, you know, meaning making is a human process, so it’s something that we humans do and it’s where we just interpret. What’s happening to create a coherent understanding.

So when everything’s going crazy, right, eventually we have to decide what does it mean for us? And we’re biologically disposed to that. We’re intellectually disposed to that. Um, you know, it starts though with our fight or flight, so like, is AI coming from my job or not? Right? Like, immediately I’m trying to understand this.

And so this is a process that humans are constantly doing. It’s not like, oh, I landed on that and I’m good. It’s, we’re constantly getting different inputs or. We see different evidence in, and sometimes what we’ve decided was happening, we’re like, actually I’m starting to get little signals that that’s not what’s happening.

So again, you know, if I am back in 2016 and I am thinking like Hillary’s this, you know, foregone conclusion, even though at the time I was teaching in New Hampshire, I was [00:11:00] at the University of New Hampshire teaching, I saw signs up all over the place around that, you know, all around the campus and the neighborhoods that I was in that said, we are deplorable.

And it was like, right then literally signs are looking me in the face telling me what actually the meaning making is happening in that country. And I just, you know, I just ignored it. I thought, oh, well that doesn’t match up to how I understand how this world’s going to play out.

And then of course I had to be like. Wowza, I’ve got to step back here and get, you know, my signals. I’ve got to check in here again.

Eric: Well, don’t feel so bad, you and everybody else. I don’t think there were a whole lot of people, Ruth Bader Ginsburg didn’t think that Trump was going to win. James Comey didn’t think that Trump was going to win.

Obama didn’t. Nobody did. These are very, very smart people. So a lot of folks either misread the meaning. Or misinterpreted the making.

Kristen: Both of those. Yeah. Like you don’t really know what’s going on. You know, you are sort of like saying, oh [00:12:00] well these are, this is the world and this is what’s happening and so this is what the best thing is for the world.

And you like, wow, you just missed it. It’s not the best thing. We saw it again with the most, I don’t mean to only talk about elections because I think there’s lots of meaning making opportunities, but when you think about. Biden-Harris and just, I called it the “Yeah, uh-huh” election, where it was like the economy’s great—uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh—but for the people going to the grocery store.

You know, those are the signals that they’re looking for and they’re like the, this is expensive. I feel like it’s expensive so the economy can’t be so great. because I’m finding it really expensive. And it doesn’t matter that you have experts or job reports or stock market. Like they don’t care. You’re almost like you’re saying this is how you should be conducting your meaning making.

In fact, they’re like, this is how I do it. I say the same thing with crime, you know, my friends tear their hair out. When crime is going down, but people are more concerned about it. And I’m like, you know why that is? It’s because like when I go back to DC, you know, and I go to the CVS, I have to [00:13:00] literally stand there in the aisle and buzz this doorbell buzzer.

And it takes forever for an employee to come to unlock the case and give me the deodorant. And you’re like, oh my God, we’re under such siege. We have to protect the deodorant. Right? And that is like somebody saying, this shit is out of control. You know? Yeah.

Eric: And if someone, you know, doesn’t smell so great, they’ll say, have you been to the CVS?

Kristen: That’s right.

Eric: I didn’t. I’m just less patient.

Kristen: Yeah.

Eric: But so let’s get into what, in a sense, it feels to me like a lot of folks have misinterpreted the meaning of. of our society, of our culture. How is it that Trump was able to get elected, or how is it that people don’t vote? Or how is it that young people are expressing themselves in different ways and so on.

Can you take me through what your approaches or how you’re helping people understand how to really understand what the meanings of people [00:14:00] are and how to use that to advance good causes?

Kristen: Yeah, well I think the first thing to think about is in a lot of ways, meaning making was kind of set on a lot of big issues for a long time.

So if you know, you look at big. Times like the end of World War ii. You know, we talk about it a lot, or the new deal, like in the US we talk about these as very formative times where, you know, we did decide that there would be a social safety net. There was meaning making around that. There was lots of stuff culturally, politically right.

And then it was like, we are a country that has a safety net. And then we’ve sort of seen it erode over time and like, well, who gets it? And so. Now the meaning making is like, you know, wait a second. We’ve lost the thread on that original meaning making, which you know, really came out of the depression and an experience.

And the further you get away from it, people are thinking about it a little bit differently. Um, so I think that [00:15:00] what people have to understand, again, is meaning making is something that’s constantly going on. And at the moment we just have a lot of chaos. And the chaos comes from, you know, lack of trust.

The chaos comes from, we have really different solutions. We even have. Really different understanding of what the problems are that we need to solve. And so I think, you know, you’ve ended up in this place where, and I wouldn’t have done this this way obviously, but if you look at an administration that’s just literally leveling programs, like USAID is gone overnight and you’re suddenly like, wow.

Now for you and me, we’ve worked on these issues a long time. I didn’t think USAID was our most effective institution. I just don’t think we’re going to do international development. So I’m interested in how we’ll be doing that. But suddenly that’s where meaning making opens up is it used to be, this was how you did development and great things came from that.

The global fund, like you think about some of these things that came from us having common meaning and then acting upon that meaning. But eventually it erodes or it gets corrupted, [00:16:00] right? And then, and if you’re not watching for it, suddenly it’s under pretty serious attack and you’ve got to find the new way.

Eric: You said something surprising in, in your essay, you said, right now many minds are open, although that won’t last forever, and that seemed to almost counter-intuitive to me because it feels to me like people are hardening off against each other and we are kind of going to our corners and doing all that kind of tribal stuff.

Can you talk about why and how you think minds are open and what we’re supposed to do about that? What we can do about that?

Kristen: Yeah. Well, you have minds opening for a couple of different ways. One is that some things are possible now that were never possible before. Um, you know, one of our, our best times of meaning making was actually during COVID.

And you think about, you know, at that point everybody was like, I don’t know if we can do telehealth. I don’t know if we can, you know, get services right to the door. I don’t know if we can allow restaurants to deliver wine or if you could do wine pickup on the curb. Right. Thank God we figured [00:17:00] that one out.

Eric: Yeah.

Kristen: The truth was as soon as it was necessary, as soon as it was necessary, we had to remake up our minds about what was possible. Um, and I think we’re in that same situation now where like for the first time in a pretty long time, even though we’ve all seen the good governance groups in our many decades of working, like right now, people are really deciding what is the role of government because they’re having these different things.

And as much as you might want to be tribal and whatever, you’re also trying to figure out. Suddenly you can’t go talk to a live person at a social security office that’s closed. because you can only do it online, you know, and you don’t get the service that you want. You may suddenly really have strong opinions about that because the government actually interacts with our life quite a lot and you’re about to see a pretty massive change.

So. People are having to make up their minds about stuff. We you know, we saw a recent stat from Gallup. It’s at the highest ever. [00:18:00] 79% of Americans right now are saying immigration is good for America. So basically, for all that’s happening, and for people who are like, listen, immigration’s a problem, we’ve got to get a hold of it to, you know, these, these deportations and how we’re doing it, what’s making it actually happen is people have to think, they actually have to say, what do I think about this Really?

And suddenly you’re like, oh, well that’s huge. That 79% said it was good for America. Like, you should go. You should go work on that. That’s a good thing. Go use that as a little springboard.

Eric: Well, it absolutely inspired me in that I’ve been thinking a lot about what happens, what comes next and what does, I don’t know, call it project 2029 look like, but how, given that the states of the institutions are what they are, and some of them will not come back in anything close to resembling what we remember them to be.

That there are some opportunities to. Build new things and maybe even to create new coalitions and partnerships and things like that. And after the break, [00:19:00] we’ll talk a lot more about how we put meaning making into practice. We’ll be right back with Kristen Grimm right after this.

Mid-Show Break

Kirk: You are listening to Let’s Hear It, a podcast about foundation and nonprofit communications hosted by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.

Eric: If you’re enjoying this episode, you may just be a rule breaker. Check out season three of Break Fake Rules with Glen Galaich, CEO of the Stupski Foundation, as he chats with inspiring leaders in philanthropy, government media, and more about breaking the fake rules that don’t work so that we can build a future that does.

Check them out wherever you get your podcasts. And now

Kirk: back to the show.

Eric: Welcome back to Let’s Hear It. My guest is the amazing Kristen Grimm, the founder of Spitfire Strategies and the author of this series of really interesting essays about what she is calling meaning making. And we’ve been talking about how it is time, certainly to start to take a new look at [00:20:00] many of the.

Relationships and ways of doing things that foundations, grantees and nonprofits and consultants like us are working on. Kristen,

Eric: what is Job one? What is the first, most interesting opportunity that you are considering right now and that you’re working on

Kristen: right now? I really want to be thinking about.

Really big things that we’re for, I think we spend so much time about what we’re against and as institutions start to either get attacked, taken out, their power wanes because you know it’s past their expiration date. I think some people are finding themselves in blocking, but blocking to the point of being an apologist for the status quo.

And I don’t think the status quo is working for a lot of people. That’s, I mean, that’s really what we’re seeing in populist movements all over the place. And it’s a thing to really pay close attention to, is not like, oh, they don’t understand [00:21:00] the importance of democracy, or they don’t understand the dangers of authoritarianism.

What they understand is in their own lives, things are not going so well, and they’re kind of done with the bullshit. So we have to think about, well, what are we for? And I think we spend so much time trying just to take away the bad. We’re going to take away the bad, but the question is. Are we actually delivering the good?

So I think about the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act, and think about that. Back in those days, it was just a foregone conclusion that, you know, in order to have the economy, people could pollute as much as they wanted to pollute. And people just had to sort of suck it up. And then there’s a bunch of lawyers who suddenly were like, actually, I don’t think so.

And they dream this incredible vision where they were like, I think we can actually. Just make it so much better for so many people and we are going to fight to do these unbelievable acts that literally were life changing and very lasting. Right? And so even if now they’re on the ropes or whatever, phenomenal.

And my question is, who’s doing [00:22:00] that thinking? Because right now people want their lives to be better. That’s what they want. A lot of us are like, okay, well what you don’t want is this. You don’t want that. Don’t do this. Let’s remove this bad thing, as opposed to what’s the great thing that we’re going to deliver.

So to me, as we think about the role of the government, again, a conversation, we don’t get to have that often. What is the role of the government and then also what does it mean to have a high quality life in America right now? Mm-hmm. Right. If the American dream the way it was, is. Wasn’t ever right or now it’s different, but the, there’s still a touchstone of what is a high quality of life that you know is not just material.

Those are great conversations that we get to have right now. because people want those conversations.

Eric: And when you walk down the street of Bozeman or come visit us here in San Francisco and walk down the street in San Francisco or Oakland or other communities, are there things that [00:23:00] you are seeing that.

Really kind of resonate with all of these communities? Or do you have different kinds of conversations with different people?

Kristen: Definitely different kinds of conversation because again, you know, we’re living very differently. Um, whether you’re in Montana, you know, where we’re just over a million people statewide, like people out here have a very independent sense.

Um, you know, a lot of it is like people make stuff out here. Like, you know, you fix your own zipper. There’s not a cleaner out here who fixes a zipper and in San Francisco, I mean, you all are like a wash and people who are ready to fix zippers. But I say that because it’s really important to know, well, what is actually important to people because, but people who live in San Francisco, there’s a lot of beauty out there.

There’s a lot of culture out there. There’s a lot of counterculture out there, which is unbelievably great, right. You want to be able to live that way too. So you do have to have this flexibility, but I think you have to get into a space where people are actually dreaming. I read recently in Dan Brown’s book, so I assume [00:24:00] it’s all based on real data.

Eric: Of course.

Kristen: the recent Da Vinci Code trilogy or whatever it is now. But they talked about how when people are afraid, they become more selfish. So I have, you know, I have people now who are like, let’s strategize, let’s make people really afraid of authoritarianism. Let’s make people angry.

And I’m sort of like, I’m not sure I need a lot more anger. Not, I’m just saying I don’t know that I need a lot more of that. So I do think we can use meaning making now. To actually talk about what is possible, what is possible with technology. I think too often we get down into these binaries like we start doing, meaning making.

We’re sitting with AI right now, right? It’s either going to be the best thing ever or the worst thing, and we’re all dead. Like is there really any middle ground? So that’s where the meaning making opportunities are. What’s that middle ground and how do we make that good for us?

Eric: And you can talk about building as opposed to fixing, which is I think for me anyway, it’s kind of a mindset.

Space and for the longest time, philanthropy was in the job of solving [00:25:00] problems and fixing problems and things like that, which to me feels like not the way to go about it. And it doesn’t sound like that’s exactly what you are talking about. Can you talk about how nonprofits and foundations and others can think about their work in terms of building instead of fixing and what kind of effect that mindset shift may have?

Kristen: Yeah, so on those two different concepts on building and fixing, Trabian Shorters of Be Me does a really great presentation about this. So, but I’m going to make it really short for you all. Um, but you should totally go see him when he gives it. But he does talk about, these are different people, the fixers and the builders, and he’ll talk about it sometimes, like in a hurricane, hurricane comes through and the first people on the ground are the fixers.

They’re there. They’re there to get the electricity back up. They’ve got the generators, they’ve got bottled water, right? They’re fixing, and they use all the rewords. They’re going to repair, renovate, restore. And they’re super important. Fixers are [00:26:00] really important. When there’s been tragedy, trauma, fixers are good.

They get there fast, they’re getting things back together, and. Then you have to look deeper though and say, okay, well do we still want to have, you know, all of our power lines above ground, I got power back, but maybe we’re really vulnerable, you know, community because of these things. And this is where like 9, 10, 12 months later you end up with the builders and the builders come in because they’re like,

Kirk: huh.

Kristen: With that new information about, Hey, with more extreme storms, these things will keep happening. Let’s think about imagining it. Totally differently. How might we get our power in such a way that it won’t go down with every storm? Totally different question. And by the way, imagining is different than reimagining.

When you’re reimagining, you’re already putting yourself in a box. Like right now we’re going to reimagine academic freedom. Okay, well, I’m already on campus. I’m already in the [00:27:00] first Amendment I’m already in, which is very different than. I want to imagine a world where everyone is free to have civil discourse and incredibly diverse opinions.

Totally different. I don’t know, does that happen on campus? Not happen on campus? Is it around the first amendment is on something else. Suddenly you’re in a really different space and these people are different. So Trabian would argue, they have a different mindset. And what’s interesting is.

Builders will walk away. Like if you’re sitting in a, in a room and talking about, let’s talk about repair, renovate, let’s restore. They’re like done. Like we don’t want to do it the same way. We want to do it a different way, a new way. And I think you’re actually seeing a lot of people who want that. A lot of people, I feel like they’ve been left behind and like isn’t working out for them.

I think they actually like the president and Doge in other people bias towards action. They want to feel like at least somebody’s trying something,

Eric: right?

Kristen: At least somebody’s trying something.

Eric: So when you sit down with a client and say, all right, let’s make some meaning here. Are there a couple of questions that you ask?

How do you [00:28:00] get that conversation started?

Kristen: Yeah, I think first and foremost we have to think about, well, what do we want to create meaning around? So again, I think you, in immigration, I think we just really struggled with this one. It’s a really hard thing. We’re nostalgic about immigration. We are a country built on it, right?

We sometimes we commodify it, we need it for our economy. Like we’ve tried a couple of different things and we’re still here in this place, which is pretty rough. And mostly we’re against the things. That other people want to do around immigration. But what we haven’t sort of had is this comprehensive view of what does great immigration look like?

And I think because we’ve never had that, then we end up with these unbelievably complicated bills that get taken out purely on their size alone. because there’s so many things to pick apart. But I don’t think, I can’t say this is the vision of a very pro-immigration society that is popular. That’s the second part of it that we can make popular.[00:29:00]

because again, a big thing with meaning making is majority making, you know, more than anything you want to know, I am going to do meaning making around this, and then I’m going to get not 51%, but 60, 70, 80% agreement around it. That’s the other thing is, okay, so where do you see that being able to happen? because if you can’t see how to popularize it, then you’re not really going to be doing great.

meaning making.

Eric: What, so what do you think the best opportunity is right now to bring together 60 or 70% of people around anything?

Kristen: I mean, probably role of government, but it’s not going to be under the role of government tag.

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: I was just over in Copenhagen and Finland. And so Denmark and Finland are, are known as some of the happiest countries on earth.

And we go over there for a foundation to find out. You know what’s going right over here, like what are they doing in their societies? But one thing I find so interesting is people truly believe that the taxes they pay, which are not insignificant, the taxes they pay are investments in their [00:30:00] quality of life.

And they believe the government delivers on it that they actually are better off because they put into the communal pot they get, and again, Denmark, they’re one of the richest countries on earth. They have an incredible education system. So they are getting those things. Now. I don’t think we have that same civic bargain going on in America, but I think there’s an opportunity to talk about communally.

What does it mean? I mean, I think you and I have both been in many meetings where people are like, we have to sell interdependence. Yes. And we have to find a way to talk about that that feels like, not like, oh, you better be with other people, or shit’s going to go down. But rather what is possible when we all put our money in the same pot and then we actually see it.

So to me that is a pretty huge one because it really is about a government that centers. People’s wellbeing, which I don’t think most people believe. Now, the other thing I would also say is I think that there’s a tremendous amount of ability, because I think right now we have a lot of people saying, why is [00:31:00] life not good in America?

And a lot of people are giving us the meaning, making answer of it’s immigrants. You know, it’s these criminals. And in fact, a lot of it is corporate greed and people really don’t like corporate greed. But it, it can’t just be the money and politics thing, which I think makes everybody’s eyes glas. But I do think that there’s a tremendous opportunity.

You know, and talking with a lot of people about how do we actually talk about that this corporate greed is not okay. Like it’s one of the main reasons that we have this growing inequality and we’ve just never really landed on meaning making that was popular.

Eric: Yeah. I happen to agree with you completely.

All that efficiency that we were going to get when we got email. All the money that was made from that efficiency went into the hands of 10 or 15 or 20 people. And that the benefit of that, the value of technology, was not invested back into the people who helped support it and even create it. And I think the same is true with our own sense of dread around ai because I think we’re all, I think they’re [00:32:00] going to.

Take away our jobs and make a lot of money, and then we’re going to, that’ll be that. So I totally agree with you on that. Um, We just have a couple of minutes left, but I have a couple more questions for you. You talk about this need to offer clarity through the chaos, and if there’s ever been a more chaotic time in my lifetime, I’ve blocked it out.

Eric: How do you offer clarity in this level of chaos?

Kristen: I think you really have to say to yourself, I am a lighthouse. I think there’s too many people right now in the chaos. They’re like, oh, we should do these things. Then we’ll have less chaos. Guess what people don’t want when they’re in the middle of chaos is just less chaos,

Eric: right?

Kristen: They actually want to know through this chaos we could get here. So I know that if I get through this storm and over this mountain, I am going to be in this unbelievably beautiful, wonderful place that I really want to be at with a lot of people. Surrounding me that are important to me. And I think we are not doing enough of being that lighthouse of this is where you’re coming, not listen to us.

We can make it less chaotic. Like, to me that [00:33:00] is, that is so lame. Um, and I just think a lot of times that’s what we are. We’re like, you know what? We’re going to, we’re going to make it less chaotic for you. I think what they, people want to feel like is, we’re going to really listen to you and we’re going to make it better.

Really better, not incrementally better, not a lot of excuses better, like absolutely better. And here are our big, brilliant ideas. To do that.

Eric: And let’s just close with this question. You are to my mind, an indefatigable, optimist in a sea of crazy. What gives you hope?

Kristen: I think it’s actually that most people, even though sometimes we have to read about the Silicon Valley bros who are not, but most people are also very hopeful, right?

They want life to be good for them, for their children, people. Really look for signs of hope. One of my favorite pictures when I was in a trailer is I am sitting there in my Hillary shirt and definitely very vocally arguing with a guy in a MAGA hat. And you can just [00:34:00] see us going at it. And you would assume we were just having this unbelievable political conversation, which by the way, and no campground ever did.

I walk in there and say, hi, my name is Kristen and I’m a Democrat. Um, but he and I were in fact fighting over. What the fish were biting on. Like we were really talking about the flies and whether or not, you know, which fly was going to work. And I do think we have an incredible amount in common. And while there are divisive forces.

In fact, as people, we like to get along and as people, we actually do want things to get better. We don’t want them to get worse. And so I think when we give people things to be four, that’s really important. So My own pet peeve on Saturday and I did walk down to No Kings, but I literally just wanted to walk to everybody and be like.

For the time that you created this sign and came down here and while I’m glad you’re in this community, these are five other things you could have done that probably [00:35:00] would’ve made a bigger difference. And again, I know that some of this is spectacle and it’s important, but I think it actually negatively impacts people’s agency, which is, is this the only thing we can do?

To have the future we want. So I want to go back and I’ll end on this question you asked me, which is, should we be problem solvers? And I think we’ve gone so far in the problem solving and a lot of times we actually made people the problem that we were solving that I’m sort of wondering what if we spent the next 10 years being future makers?

Eric: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: Instead of problem solvers. What if we were future makers? Already the meaning is completely different about what we’re setting out to do.

Eric: Well, yeah, you are a lighthouse in our, in our field, in our community, and to me, I just really appreciate your insight. You are also just an Energizer Bunny.

You have new things that you’re thinking of and products that you’re [00:36:00] producing, and, you know, Spitfire does incredible work, so I just can’t thank you enough, Kristen, for being in this business, for being my friend for. All of it. Um, just, you know, thank you. And we will obviously, we’ll put links to the essays and things like that and to spitfire, but thank you again.

Thank you for being you, Kristen.

Kristen: Thank you Eric for talking about one of my favorite topics. I love getting a chance.

Eric: Thanks again.

Kirk: And we’re back.

Eric: Don’t you wish, Kirk, that you had a little more enterprise. Don’t you wish you were doing?

Kirk: Yeah.

Eric: Right. You’re going to, you’re going to breach through the thing and kill me. No, Kirk is the hardest working guy I know, except with the exception of this podcast. But

Kirk: look, it’s not about hard work even.

It’s about effectiveness and impact. And I’m telling you, Kristen Grimm. An impactful person in terms of the work of this field. And [00:37:00] so, yeah, we have many guests. I think basically every guest we’ve ever had has caused me to really seriously reevaluate my life choices in my lack of capacity and effectiveness.

But Kristen is bringing us along for a very interesting ride here and there’s so much in this discussion and I really want to not just take all the action out of the room just by blah, blah, blah. because this could be, there’s just a temptation to do that on this topic. So let me just pause and reflect on this part.

Kristen living in Bozeman, Montana for half the year.

Eric: Right.

Kirk: Is what

Eric: Kristen, no, I think she’s there all the time now.

Kirk: Kristen does all the cool things, Kristen does all the cool things. It’s like I’ve been DCA, been entrenched in this progressive, this progressive communication space. In fact, I helped. Create it in different ways.

And, and now I’m just going to, I need to see what it’s like. I was thinking about the phrase “touch grass.” As Kristen was talking, I was like, Kristen is like, I need to touch the grass of all of America. And I’m going to do that in two ways. I’m going to, [00:38:00] I’m going to get my little camper and run around the country.

To see what’s actually going on, but I’m also going to relocate to Bozeman, Montana. What is not to like about this story? I love that part. Just that part we’ll talk about to start. Just that Kristen’s doing this stuff.

Eric: Well, it helps that, it gives Kristen access to real, so-called real people.

Whereas many of us on the coast are in the bubble. Maybe we have a different version of real people, and my neighbors are real people. It’s true. But my neighbors and Kristen’s neighbors may not be exactly the same. And hey, look there, you could touch all kinds of grass in San Francisco. There’s a cannabis store, I think, on every corner.

So there’s that. I don’t know what you’re talking about. No, you’re right. Kristen gets out. She asks questions she gets with folks, she observes, she gathers information, she, and then she puts it through that crazy brain of hers and helps us make meaning in our work. And I mean, I go all the way back to the Smart Chart, which was what, [00:39:00] for me anyway, was the seminal communications training and planning tool that I learned about how to do communications strategy from that.

And she has just continued to—and Spitfire as an organization, has continued to create these really valuable materials, tools for all of us to be able to do our job. And I think here she’s asking kind of simple questions about our role in trying to reach our. Audiences trying to persuade, trying to make sense, and trying to use that as a way to advance all of our work.

And that’s just gold.

Kirk: It is. But can I challenge your presupposition there that these are simple questions because I think that when you do it, Kristen is committed to, which is I’m going to actually get out there—there’s something going on. And by the way, I loved, at one point in the [00:40:00] conversation you described to Kristen, how.

So many people get the news and and I was like, this is Eric Brown, date of New Yorker just rattling off the greatest hits, including reading the New Yorker. But it was interesting, you described all the ways that people learn about the world and it’s really based on what people read, right?

The sources that they, that they’re reading from. And

Eric: Well, it used to be. Now it’s based on the nonsense and whatever that people are being bombarded with through their various channels. It’s interesting—when we talked about Dr. Wilson, I rattled around my newspaper, which sounds a lot like this.

Kirk: Mm-hmm. It’s there, I

Eric: can tell you it’s a real paper that lands on my front doorstep. And not only that, every, this paper is not. Customized to make a little thing go off in my brain, right? They’re not feeding me the stuff I want to hear or read or see. It’s actually some version of an objective [00:41:00] presentation of things.

And I get to choose. I get to curate the information, and I think that’s this big, big issue that we have right now, is that we are customizing reality for people. And that’s like, like you see you, you talk to two different, my guess is that Kristen could walk down the street in Bozeman. And the reality that a lot of those people, people perceive it.

Is, is, could not be less similar to the reality that somebody else who’s getting their information from another set of totally curated sources, and I mean those people actually could be next door neighbors and they still have a totally different reality. And That’s where cutting through the clutter, trying to make meaning of all this becomes so important.

Kirk: And It sounds like you’re about to sign off on the podcast series we’re about to launch this year about how algorithms are shaping our brains, so that’s great. I’m going to take

Kristen: that

Kirk: Oh, as

Kristen: a to-do list.

Kirk: I’m doing that.

Kristen:

Kirk:

Kristen:

Eric: okay. [00:42:00]

Kirk: But can I give you, so I think yes to everything you just said.

Yes. Right. That’s part of what’s happening is we have this crazy situation with information and I will say again that I don’t think any of us understand really. The information environment that we’re currently living in, it’s like we’re all drinking a cup of coffee, but we don’t know what’s in the coffee and we’re wondering why it’s changing us into these shape-shifting, configured entities

Entities because we’re consuming stuff. We just don’t know what it is, where it’s coming from. So I agree and the way that’s happening, I totally agree. But the, but the other part though, that Kristen’s keyed into, which I think makes this so nuanced and naturally difficult, it starts in that origin story that Kristen provides from 2016.

And this is why I’ve always so valued Kristen’s work. People like Kristen, the work that they do. And Kristen mentions a few folks in your interview. Yeah, but it’s that self-reflection Kristen had in 2016 where she confesses, Kristen didn’t see it coming. She said, what has happened here?

I didn’t see it coming. And I think that to me, that’s the we in the hour. And I, and I would make a [00:43:00] case, by the way, and you talked about the very smart people that also didn’t see it coming.

Eric: Nobody saw it coming.

Kirk: This. I disagree.

Eric: Okay.

Kirk: It’s not that we have to maybe you

Eric: saw coming.

Kirk: No, no, no. This is the thing.

We have to define. We and our and nobody and they, because this is Kristen’s point. Nobody, I know exactly what you’re talking about. All the smart people doing the thing, changing the world. None of us, and I’ll put myself in that bucket, we didn’t see it coming. But Kristen’s saying, wait a minute. Not only did nobody not see this coming.

Millions of people wanted it to come. Millions of people were saying, this is the reality I want to see in America because this is speaking to something that I need. There’s something going on in my experience that’s not being addressed in the life that I’m seeing relayed to me.

And I feel like that’s the search that, that Kristen has been on in her travels across America to understand all this stuff.

Eric: Well, it’s interesting in its own special way—the Mamdani [00:44:00] Candidacy in New York is a weird kind of time-warped version of that. Yes. And it is. Nobody saw that coming either and, but he is certainly speaking to a lot of people’s needs.

Now whether we can deliver on that is another question entirely, but it is so interesting that we are now seeing kind of this same kind of coalescence around. Ideas that make a whole lot of sense to a lot of people and is creating its own little movement. Now, I’m not obviously making any political analogies or anything like our parallels, but yeah, it, it is also true that the, if you reduce these movements to their component parts.

It tracks with the questions that Kristen was asking about that you need to consider if you’re ready to do meaning making. One of which is can you offer clarity in the chaos?

Kirk: Right. Exactly. [00:45:00]

Eric: Now, one is, can you focus on the future? And that’s certainly not what the current Washington administration is doing.

It’s focusing very resolutely on the past, so that may be an outlier there, but what big questions are in play that you might offer answers to? Because this is not just about being against things. It’s about offering solutions to them.

Kirk: Well, and I think that that sensibility, that this grows out of Kristen’s honest effort to actually try to get a clear sense of what’s happening for people in their real lives.

And so I think to me, this is the kind of the, it is like this period of cognitive dissonance that again, there’s a we in an hour around where the cognitive dissonance is lived, right? So there’s a whole category of people for whom. These choices, these changes don’t make a lot of sense. Then there’s a whole other category for whom these choices and changes feel like they’re incredibly welcome.

And then I think we would both agree that’s all being mediated through this information landscape where none of it makes sense anymore anyway. Yeah. Because it feels like it’s all, so it’s also so, so Kristen has [00:46:00] said, I want to get out into the field. And so what I love too, by the way, in terms of the optimism with which Kristen is presenting this to work, is Kristen is saying, not only do you need to do meaning making, but this is a once in a generation moment.

To reconceive of how we consider meaning making. And It brings me back to a begrudging comment at our last conversation, like this profound disruption that’s been unleashed in all of these institutions. There’s a place where you have to grit your teeth and be like, I don’t like it.

I feel like this is hateful. I feel like this is too destructive. But there’s a but in there, which is. If we kind of look at this the right way, you could pull some real opportunity out of this situation that we find ourselves in. But you’ve got to be ready to do the real work in this moment.

Eric: Yeah, I, I agree. And. I really encourage people to go and read the series. We’ll also put it on, on our website for people who just want to come to the Let’s Hear website because you never know and to have a conversation about this. I, I, I [00:47:00] think that this is exactly the sort of thing that we need to chew on.

We need to add our own examples. We have to think through what it means for our work. And, and I encourage people to maybe have a lunchtime thing where you read through the series and talk it through—what does this mean for your organization? How can you apply it? What do you think the first thing to do is?

And then, and then next. I’m also particularly interested in her notion about fo focusing on building, and she references Trabian Shorters, who’s also mm-hmm. Been on the show. Mm-hmm. I hope someday more than once. that we want to talk about building something new, not fixing something that’s broken.

And I think I might have talked about how foundations have a tendency to talk about how they’re like, how they’re going to solve the problem. And I don’t think that’s the way to think about the work that we do.

Kirk: So did you watch the series Mad [00:48:00] Ben Ever?

Eric: I did.

Kirk: Did you enjoy it?

Eric: I did. It was delicious.

Kirk: Do you remember the finale of that, of that series? I,

Eric: as a matter

Kirk: of fact, I

Eric: do.

Kirk: So This feels like Kristen is embodying that journey because the thing that

Eric: she’s standing on the lawn at Esalen in Big Sur

Kirk: So this is what came up for me.

I was thinking so part of what’s informing. So yes, Kristen’s developed this great framework around. Meaning making and how to apply it to the work of these organizations and all. And it’s, and I would argue, it’s pretty fundamental, which is why I think even though the questions might be simple, I think the implications are pretty profound.

Even This change from focusing on problems to actually focusing on solutions that is such a wholesale reconfiguration of what people in the progressive can movement consider their work and their role to be about. But for Kristen, the process coming to terms with what that looks like was Kristen had to experience it for [00:49:00] Kristen’s self.

Like Kristen went into the field. And I think that these conversations that she’s describing, like the very passionate debate with the MAGA person at the campground. And by the way, great work Kristen.

Eric: redirect.

Kirk: Campgrounds are, are the most democratic places in the world.

That’s where democracy lives. And, and then I’m going to have a big debate with somebody in the campground wearing a MAGA hat. And My debate’s going to be about which flies are the best to catch the fish. Right? Like, what’s one of the best lures and bates to use. But this piece, I think, to me.

As much as the framework around meaning making that Kristen has provided and the, and the way to challenge our thinking about how to pro produce this work in a, in a more meaningful and impactful way. This request, this hidden request to say, because I think this is where the we in the hour, here’s really important if you’re doing this work from the vantage point of a well appointed office.

In a major metropolitan center and you’re going to and from that well appointed office [00:50:00] under the careful watchful eye of either your fabulously wonderful car or the incredibly transparently always available public transit system, or you’re biking there and you’re incredibly cool bike and you’re using and you’re doing that all the way and you’re protected bike lanes.

The we in our of the community with which you associate. Every day looks so different than the we in the hour of the communities that Kristen’s encountering when she’s traveling around the country and, and being in all these communities that are feeling the real effects and the assault of what’s had been happening with our economy and all this stuff that’s going on.

Right? So, so again, That’s the thing—I just love what Kristen’s done here, and I think it’s actually the invitation for all of us to take this request. It’s like, what can I do? To put myself into the field in a new and different way, so, right. It’s not the craziness of my social media feed, it’s also not the very curated view of the world I’m going to get through the New York Times or the New York or anything like that.

It’s actually my first person felt experience of actually getting to the field and talking to real people. I think that’s a very important part of what Kristen’s talking about here, and I think it’s [00:51:00] incredibly welcome. I think it’s really necessary.

Eric: Kirk, you make sense.

Kirk: Can we just, can we just cut that out and that would just be,

Eric: oh, no,

Kirk: that would be the social media feed. This, I’m going to put it

Eric: on a loop.

Kirk: So, so then let me give you my last thing here, because again, there’s so much in this and Kristen, this is such great work, but, so you asked Kristen what. How things might get organized going forward. What some of the, so some of the kind of common themes were, I love that conversation around fixers and builders and we’ve got to become builders.

Less so fixers, but this notion that things are becoming possible now that. Weren’t before, just like COVID was this pandemic. Yeah. That afflicted all of us and we had to adapt that, that again, this disruption that’s taking place. Like our job is to be resilient, adaptive and creative. And actually. [00:52:00] Grab this moment and turn it into something better.

Oh my gosh. And, and to spend the next 10 years being future makers, not problem solvers. That completely changes the game for what we should be doing as an as, as a movement, whatever we want to characterize this movement to be. And, and I think Kristen’s right. I think Kristen’s right, and I’m going to hesitate to go into the weeds about all the stuff that we work on this in this domain, though, of course, if you want to hear it, you can hear Eric’s very frustrated interview with me a while back where he was trying to get me to the point to talk about the stuff we work on.

I could never get there because I told the great story of Iowa, but don’t you agree, Eric, like this is, we’ve got to get people into this world of like, let’s get out of this negative framing. Let’s talk about how we build for consensus. And, and Kristen’s talking about. The audacity, what could we put forward that would garner 60, 70, 80% agreement across this population?

Eric: Yeah.

Kirk: What are those ideas? And so, Kristen, I don’t know. This is what you find when you go to the campgrounds across America. You find this kind of stuff [00:53:00] and it’s, it’s the very best stuff. And again, Kristen comes back to this podcast and just drops great wisdom all over it.

Eric: Well, I totally agree. And Kirk, you were very, very trenchant.

Kirk: This very, this is the stuff that gets me going, this as, as the native Iowan who’s living in San Francisco, who’s been spending years begging people to get into the field and have these conversations. It is you, you’ve got to get out of these big, awesome, wonderful cities that we all love to live in.

You’ve got to get out to where people are really living, working, and dying to understand how we need to actually change this conversation. And when you’re in those places, the angry. Reflection of somebody who storms into Washington DC and says, I’m going to tear all this down to serve your interests. It makes perfect sense why that voice would resonate with so many people.

Eric: Well, let’s get out there and do it and we’ll use Kristen’s guidance as our, as our, I don’t know, our North Star or something, our touchstone. [00:54:00]

Kirk: Let’s do it. So Kristen Grimm four part series on meaning making on the Spitfire Strategies website. Please go check it out. Kristen has done some different work around this with podcast interviews written, so check that stuff out too.

And Kristen Spitfire, keep at it. This is the good stuff. This is the key work and welcome to Bozeman Montana. Now, you’ve been there for a while, but it’s a nice little spot to call home.

Eric: Well, thanks Kirk for all of your energy and have a nice quiet cup of tea.

Eric: Thank you very much.

We’ll see you next time and let’s hear it.

Kirk: Okay everybody, that’s it for this episode. Please let us know if you have any thoughts about what you heard today or people we should have on this show, and that definitely includes yourself. And we’d like to thank John Ali, the tuneful and inspiring composer of our theme music.

Eric: Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,

Kirk: and please check out Lumina’s terrific podcast, today’s students tomorrow’s talent, and you can find that at luminafoundation.org. We

Eric: certainly thank today’s guest, and of [00:55:00] course, all of you,

Kirk: and most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.

Eric: Oh no, thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk: Okay, everybody, till next time.